[TQA]

I had a Jaguar 22 which is the UK clone of the Catalina 22. It was an excellent first 'big' boat. I trailed mine all over the UK and down to the Med.

two things.

Launching and recovering a swing keel boat like the C 22 will be a great deal easier than anything with a fixed wing keel. This would be the key decision point for me. In the UK people with fixed keel boats of similar size usually needed a crane.

If you have a choice of boats and one has a 4 wheel trailer pick the 4 wheeler. I managed with the two wheel trailer but had an exceptionally good tow car. [Citroen CX]

The good times I had with my jag 22 lead up to me retiring onto a 44 ft cutter in the Caribbean.

 

[SHNOOL]

Ok, if the Oday 25 is even a consideration then my own boat an S2 7.9 would be better than everything else mentioned.
It's heavy built.
It draws only 18" of water (super easy to launch)
it's self righting with the centerboard up (yes provable)
it draws a whopping 5' centerboard down, so it goes upwind like mad
the cockpit is HUGE
comes in inboard, and outboard versions
has lots of room below, with a large V berth
5'8" headroom below
a proper space for a head.

Downside, it weighs in 4700lbs boat/sails/rigging and motor. Add about 1000 for trailer and maybe another 500ish for gear? 6200lbs? all up?

Trailers nicely though (nice and low on the road).

I would not want to rig/derig the boat even for long weekends though, but then most of these others I'd put in that category too.

The S2 7.9 is also probably the most robustly built of the list so far mentioned, and frankly the best sailing, and fastest.
Although if the 7.9 is too big, consider the 6.9 (everything good about the 7.9 in a smaller package, except it isn't self righting board up).

 

[chip]

I have seen it done on one. The bulkhead was kept in same location but the door was a slider rather than swing door. The quality of the work was only fair but the concept seemed executable. I agree that I don't think you could fit a swinging door in the location and have it work. It would be a tight space but it doesn't seem like it would be impossible. The hardest thing would probably be placing in the new pieces. It is something floating in the back of my head but need to look at what it would entail better. Plus see how it would impact ventilation.

It may be technically possible, and if you wanted a small, simple sailboat for a long time, it might be worth figuring out how to add a sliding door to the ~8 sq feet of bulkhead in a C22, but you said in your original post that you wanted to learn how to sail and possibly move up to something bigger down the road. If that's the goal, I suggest just getting something that meets your needs and sailing the hell out of it now. You'll get farther faster by actually sailing than you will wasting time and money renovating something that doesn't really work for you, in my opinion.

 

[deniseO30]

CJ, STOP! Take 5.
Notice how you are already thinking larger than you were at the beginning of this discussion?

First consider getting some real time on and how to sail instruction on sailboats

20 22 ft boats are about the max for 2 people raising a mast and rigging the boat and still be in the water in a couple of hours.

Larger boats as you are finding out quickly get heavy cumbersome and harder to load onto the trailer.
Looking for a stand up head already suggests you the couple will not be happy very long on a boat with a portapotty cooler, and crawl or stoop headroom.

Well set up sailboat trailers have keel guide boards tongue extension even a large wheel instead of the little skid jack. On tidal waters ALWAYS launch on a RISING TIDE!

Fact: the larger a trailered or car top boat is... the less it will be used. add to that, the larger the rigging is on a sailboat is the more quickly it gets old.

Next chapter The gin pole! And other ways to rig a boat alone, BECAUSE it quickly becomes a crew of one doing it!

 

[Sal Paradise]

Don't really need heavier or more robust for the Hudson river or Lake George. Most common danger is a lack of wind!!

 

[sesmith]

We have a Seaward 25, so I AM a bit biased. That said, the Catalina 22 is a very popular boat up here in the Fingerlakes area. I have never sailed on one, but my dock neighbor had one and liked it quite a lot. Fit and finish on the Seaward 23 will be better. Look at the stainless opening ports, for instance. The Catalina will have a cored deck (someone correct me if I'm wrong here), so do your due diligence in inspecting the deck and cockpit floor. Seaward uses no wood core in theirs. The Catalina will likely sail faster up wind, but my guess is that the Seaward will feel more stable when the wind pipes up. You really should spend some time aboard both boats. You may find the Seaward roomier and better suited for overnighting on, but I have only sailed on a Seaward 23 once, and haven't seen it side by side with a Catalina 22. If you were looking at larger trailerable cruising boats, I would say, hands down, that a Seaward 25 is one of the best choices out there (but like I said originally, I'm biased).

I also have a Dodge Dakota (4.7L) V8. Fine for towing either of the above boats, undersized for something the size of a Seaward 25, larger Oday, etc. That said, the Dakota is one tough truck. I used to use it to haul my Seaward 25 to Lake Ontario, Champlain, and up to Lake Huron's North Channel. I recently replaced it with an Expediton...much better suited to the job.

Other boats that no one has mentioned so far...the water balasted Hunter boats. The Hunter 23.5 (or newer 240), and the larger Hunter 260, all could be towed with your Dakota. We used to have a Hunter 23.5, and have sailed it up on Lake Champlain. It would also be a great boat to learn on... more tender than the Seaward, but not any worse than the Catalina 22. There are several Hunter 260's that have sailed with us up on the North Channel, and do fine there. Lots of room in them.

 

[Minnesail]

I think I saw the same write-up on adding a sliding door in front of the v-berth, and it was something I thought I was going to want to do to mine.

But after sailing with it for a year, nah. Not needed. It's not like we're out at sea for a week at a time, for the few times the potty is needed the curtain works fine. And let's be frank, on a boat this size even a door isn't going to offer much privacy. You'd still want to use the shore toilet when possible.


Regarding sleeping size and your 6' 3" vs my 5' 9" — you might want to look for the newer ones. I think in 1985 they rearranged the interior, and in 1995 they actually made the boat bigger. Those newer ones would probably work better for you than my 1974.


And lastly, yeah, my boat is 42 years old. And the swing keel mechanism is in great shape. I lifted it this year and dropped the keel and it was nearly perfect. There was a slight bit of wear on the pin, more of a polished spot really, and just some slight wearing in the hole in the keel. The keel itself was a mess of rust and old paint, but the swing mechanism was great. From my research the problem keels seem to be those that live on a saltwater mooring. I don't know my boat's whole history, but for the last decade or so it's been on a freshwater mooring for five months out of the year and that doesn't seem to have hurt it any. It doesn't have either the new assembly or the keel spacers that Catalina Direct sells.

 

[Zarathu]

You will also need things that you din't think you would need when you bought it. Expect to pay an additional $3000 for stuff you never thought you would need:

1. You will need a motor of some kind. While its a horrid thing to say, the reality is that sailing is often just slow motorboating: motoring out of the slip or mooring to where there is air, motoring back to the slip or mooring from air, motoring when the air stops altogether, motoring to some place fast and directing to get away from a storm, motoring when you don't have time to tack to get to some place which is directly into the wind, etc.

Without a motor, you will eventually get into some deep doo-doo.

I would recommend a extra long shaft(25 inch) 6 hp Tohatsu. The extra long shaft will allow you to go forward or even have two people forward without taking the impeller out of the water, and blowing up your engine, and it will keep it deep enough to, a) not be affect by chop, and b) get it below the stern, making backing up much more effective.

Don't run ethanol gas in it or you will eventually be very very unhappy, and do run it with a double dose of Blue marine Stabil.

2. You will need clothing and gear at the least, coat and pants rain gear, gloves, may be boots. Depending on the conditions you sail, you may need a drysuit. Drysuits cost $650, and for most sailing are not necessary, but in you should fall in, or if you want to sail late or early in the season, or if the weather gets bad, they can be literally a life-saver.

3. There will be repairs you need to make and additions. For example, if you get tired of trailoring(my wife did very very early) and you end up mooring, the plastic cleat on the bow will not longer work and you will need to put in a real 6 inch SS cleat through the deck. For Mooring you will want your own 6 foot dyneema pendant($137) to connect to whatever the mooring has.

You may need to add more cleats mid ships, or to handle lines going into the cockpit. I needed to add a couple of bow eyes so that I could connect the dinghy directly to the starboard side and not worry about it slipping away while I was trying to board.

The list is almost endless. But believe me that even in a small boat, that winters in your yard, there will be expenses you never thought of. Our yacht club membership is $500. Where I am you don't rent a mooring, you buy it. And so this year I had to pay the guy who inspects all the moorings for the town $400 to replace the chain and connections to the 2500 lb block of granite, since the half inch galvanized chain was no longer galvanized and had worn to less than 1/4 inch in some places.

The smaller the boat you buy, the less additional expenses you will have each year.

 

[sesmith]

That does it. The sailing libido has been killed :-(

Too true about the size though. I think their's a mathamatical formula that squares the cost with increased "foot-itis".

Gotta spend your hard earned cash somewhere...might as well be sailing.

 

[deniseO30]

I had a hunter 23 It was touted as a trailer Sailer but it was around two thousand pounds The Mast was heavy the boat sat high on the trailer I had it for 11 months and sold it. was initially looking for a 35 foot boat about 12 years ago,

 

[sesmith]

I had a hunter 23 It was touted as a trailer Sailer but it was around two thousand pounds The Mast was heavy the boat sat high on the trailer I had it for 11 months and sold it. was initially looking for a 35 foot boat about 12 years ago,

Yea, the 23 would not be my idea of a trailerable boat. The 23.5 /240 and 260 are all swing keels and sit low on the trailer. Easy to launch. Seaward 23 isn't bad either.

 

[Zarathu]

I had a hunter 23 It was touted as a trailer Sailer but it was around two thousand pounds The Mast was heavy the boat sat high on the trailer I had it for 11 months and sold it. was initially looking for a 35 foot boat about 12 years ago,

Water is corrosive, and out to get you. Saltwater makes fresh water look like a dream.

Last year I was only planning on being in the water for 2 months, and I made the mistake of using some fittings that were galvanized. I figured that with such a short time, and no direct contact with the water, it wouldn't be a problem. Two months later I had to cut/drill them off. Its either fiberglass or aluminum or brass or stainless. Everything else gets eaten away sooner or later. And even those do too.

 

[Sal Paradise]

The Capri 22 is a better sailing boat than either of the above mentioned, it does come in a wing keel variety, so suffers from your same drawbacks as the seaward 23... but the sailing characteristics are superior to either of the above. he space below is tighter than the Cat 22, but the berths are large...
.

Not really. I rent a Capri wing keel and its a tad slower than my Mark1 swing keel. I like the Capri but at least in wind keel version its not faster. There isn't a big difference but its slower upwind and - downwind I can actually retract my keel. I do like the bigger cockpit in the Capri but I like my dinette table and seats in my Mark 1.

 

[SHNOOL]

Not really. I rent a Capri wing keel and its a tad slower than my Mark1 swing keel. I like the Capri but at least in wind keel version its not faster. There isn't a big difference but its slower upwind and - downwind I can actually retract my keel. I do like the bigger cockpit in the Capri but I like my dinette table and seats in my Mark 1.

Having owned the wing Keel model Capri, and raced against several Cat 22s... I can honestly say the Cat 22 should not be in the same time zone as the Cat 22.
Best Portsmouth rating Cat 22 is 94.7...
Worst Portsmouth rating for a Capri 22 is 90.8
96 versus 90.1 for Force 5 winds, so that answers as the winds are up question. I know there are a LOT of Cat 22 owners out there, and I NEVER said it was a bad boat, but I'll swear all day the Capri 22 is a better sailor. If you have to buy the Cat 22, the fixed fin keel model is the one to own though. Same with the Capri 22 for that matter.

So either a lot of handicapped averages are wrong, or your analogy isn't a real scientific one.

 

[chip]

Having owned the wing Keel model Capri, and raced against several Cat 22s... I can honestly say the Cat 22 should not be in the same time zone as the Cat 22.
Best Portsmouth rating Cat 22 is 94.7...
Worst Portsmouth rating for a Capri 22 is 90.8
96 versus 90.1 for Force 5 winds, so that answers as the winds are up question. I know there are a LOT of Cat 22 owners out there, and I NEVER said it was a bad boat, but I'll swear all day the Capri 22 is a better sailor. If you have to buy the Cat 22, the fixed fin keel model is the one to own though. Same with the Capri 22 for that matter.

So either a lot of handicapped averages are wrong, or your analogy isn't a real scientific one.

Yeah. They're not close. Here are the PHRF NE base handicaps:

Capri 22 WK: 213
Catalina 22: 276

Over a minute a mile difference.

The Capri is a race boat. It's way sportier than the Catalina. The Catalina is cruiser. Its interior is way more comfortable and it's somewhat easier to tow (at least one with a swing keel).

Not sure what's wrong with the Capri you rented, Sal. Maybe the bottom is fouled or the sails are shot or it's not set up correctly or something, but a property tuned Capri will destroy a Catalina on performance.

Not to take anything away from the Catalina 22...I loved mine, and sailed her hard. (Please see: Wall of Shame | Sailing Fortuitous )

Both great boats for what they do.

 

[Sal Paradise]

Well I sailed both and I disagree. On paper maybe. But PRF Number are not the whole story. Reading on the Catalina direct forums consensus seems to be the wing keel is slower. Some say the wing keel PRF number is 260. https://www.catalinadirect.com/forums/fr_topic.cfm?topic_id=377

The Capri is more a racer because it has a fractional rig. If the wind gets too strong you can bend the mast. In THAT sense it is a racer and the Mark 1 is a cruiser. The MK1 is a mast head rig. In high winds, I bet the Capri shows its stuff. I was mostly out on it in light winds and it was family sailing so we got her sailing and then sat around talking, not racing.

Now on my own boat I have a bunch of different head sails and I have a new main sail. Same light wind day - I put a bigger light weight head sail on - and especially going up wind, my old Mark 1 is faster than that Capri. The Mk1 boats also vary in speed from boat to boat, this is well known - mine might be a "fast" one. Relative to another one. Now a J 22 in my marina makes my boat look like its standing still.

The rental place argued with me as well but GPS don't lie. All I can say is I was hoping for all this extra speed and it was on balance, pretty much the same.Again it was a wing keel as well.

BTW - I really have nothing invested in the idea that the C22 is as fast or slow as any other boat including a Capira... I'm sure in the world of 22 footers its on the slower end. This was just my real world experience with the 2 boats. YMMV

I also disagree that the fixed keel boat is the one to own. Selection of a swing keel is about trailering, which the OP brought up. If I went fixed, there might be other boats to look at.

 

[Minnesail]

Well I sailed both and I disagree. On paper maybe. But PRF Number are not the whole story.

Yeah, I agree. There is a Rhodes 19 on my lake that is in every way a faster boat than my Catalina 22. It has a better PHRF. It has newer sails. And its skipper is better than me. That boat sails circles around me, sometimes literally.

But on a very low wind days he's stuck with a tiny headsail on his fractional rig, whereas I can throw up a big giant headsail. On those days I can can beat him.

 

[chip]

When two different rating systems rate one boat significantly faster than another, based on tons of real world races in all sorts of conditions, I am inclined to think that the faster rated boat is generally faster.

Obviously some boats are better in certain conditions and some skippers are better than others, but one guy renting a boat and finding it slow does not mean that the class is slow. Capri 22s are empirically faster than Catalina 22s on average.

 

[Sal Paradise]

You are looking at Fin Keel numbers. There is Much debate about how much to handicap the wing keel but its considered slow.

 

[Pendragon35]

I can only speak to sailing the Catalina 22 as a first boat. It was my first "big" boat, the bigges thing I'd sailed before was a Lightning. I bought a 1974 Cat 22 in Seattle in 1976, kept it at a variety of docks and mostly sailed it out of a marina near the locks on Port Madison and the water between Shilshole and Bainbridge Island. I didn't know how to reef, dock or use an engine when I boubht that oat and my wife had never been sailing. We learned to anchor on the way to the San Juan islands; we learned to reef from a book and then made good on the lesson the first time the winds went over 10 knots.

Catalina 22 is what I recommend for new sailing couples because they are so forgiving. If you go out and the wind kicks up and you are sorting out reefing or you didn't because you ARE new and your wife is getting that OMG look...the boat will just round up and refuse to go. She will save you from you, until you get better.

I'm sure there are other, better built, faster, snazzier boats in the size range; personally? I love the Cape Dory Typhoons. But this isn't about me: this is about you. The Catalina 22 has stayed popular because while it isn't the best at any thing, it's good at everything, good enough to let you learn more or less safely, good enough to keep you interested, good enough to let you see what sailng can be.

If that's racing...you'll sell her and get a race boat. If it's cruising, you'll get something fitted to where you want to cruise. If it's gunkholing, maybe something for that. But I bet everyone of us here, regardless of what we now sail, smiles when we see a Catalina 22 and mention happily: "I started out on one of those..."

I have an Alberg 35 now, love it, wouldn't trade it for anything. But she's a ponderous, stately lady and somedays, I miss that little CAtalina. Simple fun.