There is a long thread about that:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/53366-production-boats-limits.html

 

thanks-- will check it out now

 

For what you have in mind I think the Catalina 42 is a good fit.. While Hunters get a lot of grief from pretty well all fronts, I personally think that some of them are decent boats.. it seems they had a few bad patches structurally here and there (the early arches, eg, didn't stand up to offshore conditions from what I've heard). My major beef with Hunters (personal opinion and subjective as all getout) is the styling decisions they've made. I quite like the late 80s early 90s Legend series.. very much don't like the backstayless rigs/hot tub cockpits of subsequent editions. I'm not sold on the current 'new' look either, but plenty of manufacturers are headed that way too nowadays.

The classic 'upper crust' of the likes of Sabre and other higher end builders are probably overall 'better' than your basic Catalina.. but is that difference enough to justify the cost for what you might 'gain'???

FWIW I think Catalina has done a great job of keeping true to their line, updating and modernizing the look of established designs in a way that appeals widely to weekend and seasonal cruisers...

 

Regardless of ratings and marketing hype, I think the different builders have very different philosophies in the design and construction of their boats. The resulting boats are as different as the underlying philosophies.

If you closely look at (let alone sail) different builders' boats, you can set a sense of what those philosophies are, and which one may best fit yours.

For example, one builder may encourage the designer to package maximum space, comfort, and convenience with minimal cost in their boats. If you sit in the cockpit, you are struck by the spacious and comfortable seating, maybe highlighted by some stern rail seats. Go sailing, and when the boat heels, suddenly there's no where to sit, the comfortable seats dump you into the open cockpit with no foot bracing, and the rail seats are useless. A cockpit that happily hosts a party of twelve at the dock, but at 20 degress of heel, everyone is hanging onto something just to stay in place.

Down below, you have a regular condo feel, nice fabrics and bright wood with modern finishing. Are there any handholds on the cabin top? How about sea bearths? Do the forward and aft cabins have island queen beds that allow you to walk 270 degrees around them? Any bunks with leecloths? Do the doors, storage bins and access panels all have positive lock catches? So it all looks great until your down below and someone is heeling the boat again. You find there's not a bunk you can sleep in without rolling out, nowhere to sit without holding on to something, going forward means bouncing off the settees, and meanwhile various cabinet doors are opening and shutting as they wish.

After a while you start thinking, how soon is this trip ending?

Figure out whose philosophy best matches yours, production boats are not cut from the same cloth at all.

 

Regardless of ratings and marketing hype, I think the different builders have very different philosophies in the design and construction of their boats. The resulting boats are as different as the underlying philosophies.

If you closely look at (let alone sail) different builders' boats, you can set a sense of what those philosophies are, and which one may best fit yours.

For example, one builder may encourage the designer to package maximum space, comfort, and convenience with minimal cost in their boats. If you sit in the cockpit, you are struck by the spacious and comfortable seating, maybe highlighted by some stern rail seats. Go sailing, and when the boat heels, suddenly there's no where to sit, the comfortable seats dump you into the open cockpit with no foot bracing, and the rail seats are useless. A cockpit that happily hosts a party of twelve at the dock, but at 20 degress of heel, everyone is hanging onto something just to stay in place.

Down below, you have a regular condo feel, nice fabrics and bright wood with modern finishing. Are there any handholds on the cabin top? How about sea bearths? Do the forward and aft cabins have island queen beds that allow you to walk 270 degrees around them? Any bunks with leecloths? Do the doors, storage bins and access panels all have positive lock catches? So it all looks great until your down below and someone is heeling the boat again. You find there's not a bunk you can sleep in without rolling out, nowhere to sit without holding on to something, going forward means bouncing off the settees, and meanwhile various cabinet doors are opening and shutting as they wish.

After a while you start thinking, how soon is this trip ending?

Figure out whose philosophy best matches yours, production boats are not cut from the same cloth at all.

Agree. Also certifiable. Though hard to accept (maybe) is what exactly is one using the boat for. Pretty sure so many boats see very little of the owner let alone make passages regularly with the owner. Just saying a well built blue water boat may have advantages at sea that make life at the marina less comfortable.

 

As someone who has done a lot (for a non-marine professional) work on may different boats... my pet peeve w/ Catalina's for example or Hunters, et al is not so much build quality but the inaccessibility of stuff when it comes time to repair/replace. One thing that comes to mind is how hard it was to remove and rebed a stanchion on a Catalina 320. I really needed fingers that were half the diameter of mine and an extra knuckle joint would have made it a lot easier!
Oh, and the fact that Catalina's ideal of how to install a stanchion is take a stanchion post, weld a thread rod on the bottom and insert it through the molded toe rail. While there was a backing plate on deck, this design was just about guaranteed to leak eventually.
I remember seeing a Jeaneau at the boat show w/ pressboard cabinet doors and vinyl stickon veneer. Wanna guess how long that will last in a humid environment?
Contrast this w/ the Canadian Sailcraft I own and almost everything is accessible. (one stanchion base would necessitate removing cabinetry) The build quality of my boat is markedly better than what I've seen in BeneHuntaLina's of past years.
I'm sure the overall quality of the stock production boats IS better than in the past, but you do get what you pay for.

 

I remember seeing a Jeaneau at the boat show w/ pressboard cabinet doors and vinyl stickon veneer. Wanna guess how long that will last in a humid environment?

Either you like it or not, using real solid wood is a way of the past since it is not sustainable. Particle board and glue have improved significantly over the year, your concerns are unfounded. WHy don't you ask the dealer give you a piece of board and you can soak it in salt water see what happens. You will be amazed.

Today's production boats are far more better in design, manufacture and tighter spec than the old stick built boat in the 80's. Beneteau, Jeanneau, Catalina and hunter are still in business. It means they did something right. I can't imagine how much R&D have goon into the production. I doubt the Mom and Pa operation of the yesteryear boats can compare.

If anyone thinks the old blue water boat is much safer in crossing the pond is dreaming. A fifty foot wave has no respect of any boats in it way. We are better off to avoid and run fast with a good seamanship and plans.

The questions that bother me the most is how to stop water entering when the boat turtled.

I am just sayin'

 

It doesn't seem to me that sea berths are usually all that important if you're cruising somewhere like the Chesapeake Bay, where anchorages and marinas are less than a day away--frequently only hours. I don't know how much other coastal cruising grounds resemble this, but I suspect this is what the designers of production coastal cruisers are thinking. Now regarding those cockpits. That seems indefensible. They are sailboats after all and should be designed to be sailed, even if not for passage-making. If I were going to give the designers of the current very beamy production boats the benefit of the doubt, I wonder if they aren't thinking that we're half way to sailing them like catamarans, with all that initial stability. Reef early and don't heel.

 

I guess I may be a bit biased, owning both a Catalina 27 and 33 Morgan Out Island, and having been aboard a 36 and 416 Hunter for dinners, there are certain attributes that may not be necessary, but sure do make that cruising craft a lot more comfortable. And, I sincerely believe that all those little things, such as positive drawer, door and compartment latches, interior overhead hand-rails, secure berthing, etc..., are readily available from both dealer and aftermarket sources for very little money.

I can tell you first hand that if MY Morgan 33 Out Island heeled 20 degrees, it would scare the Hell out of me. On the 27-Catalina it was different, and heeling 30 degrees never bothered me. I even buried the rails on a few occasions. The Morgan(s), all of the Out Island series I sailed on, do not heel, yet they tend to sail very well, with the possible exception of close haul. They are not nearly as slow as some folks would lead you to believe, and they're a very comfortable riding boat, even offshore in marginal conditions. Same seems to hold true with the larger Catalina and Hunter boats, vessels 36-feet and larger.

Production boats seem to have come a long way over the past couple decades, and before jumping to conclusions about their quality, it would likely be a good idead to check them ALL out before making a decision.

Good Luck on whatever you decide upon,

Gary

 

What exactly is a production boat?
All boats are 'produced' in some fashion - and no, I'm not being deliberately obstinate here.

My Irwin has Bob Johnstone's (Island Packet founder and designer) fingerprints all over it -

It's built to the same scantlings, uses the same hull designs types, chain plates and keel methods (concrete slurry with lead pigs).
It's not volume of hulls that defines it, more IP's are out there that Irwin's. Year for year IP also produced more.

My Gemini 105mc was "built to a price" point, I suppose you could say that makes it production - although the didn't start a hull until they had a buyer. The customizations I had included and added on while at the factory increased the price 13% - does that make it custom?

Now, I've been on a 1990 IP 38 - so I can see the difference in quality of workman ship, between it and my 3 year older Irwin 38 - no argument there.
Let's be honest here - that handcrafted rubbed finish don't mean diddly to the force 8 storm rolling in. It doesn't make the ride any smoother, the boat point any better - or TRULY affect anything more than the price of the boat.

I've also sailed on Endeavor's - another boat with Johnstone's ringers all over it.

And then too - I've sailed on Guiletta (former poster here) - as custom as a boat gets unless you specifically commission a NA. It's so custom it's one of a kind with it's modifications and only 3 hulls launched in over 10 years.
Guiletta's dynacell foam cored custom interior didn't do a dang thing to keep it from bouncing around on the waves like the 42 foot dinghy it was. It's a great short range cruiser, and a splendid racer; I'd not want it as it's too hard to sail by less than semi-pro's.

 

What exactly is a production boat?
All boats are 'produced' in some fashion - and no, I'm not being deliberately obstinate here.

.

Henry Ford ensured that all boatbmakers are using production lines in some form or another. I have never met in my four years cruising anyone in a no expenses spared, one off 40 to 60 footer. They dont exist. If someone has that sort of money they probably would go 65 plus feet.

If all boats that we are talkng about are Production boats, then its all price point. Lower price point to upper price point. Those that can afford the upper price point boats, well and good. I am not snotting your ability to earn money, or your ability to save, be economical to be able to purchase a higher price point than me.

It doesn't seem to me that sea berths are usually all that important if you're cruising somewhere like the Chesapeake Bay)

Well, i have never been in Chesepeake Bay unless you count the few miles from the mouth to Norfolk. I have never needed a sea berth in my 35,000 nms on Sea Life nor the other boats i have been on.

Sex is something thats importnat to many couples. A sea berth is not conducive to sex. Why have a sexless bed if you dont need it?

I remember seeing a Jeaneau at the boat show w/ pressboard cabinet doors and vinyl stickon veneer. Wanna guess how long that will last in a humid environment?

Then dont buy it.
Theres no law that says you must buy a boat you see at the boat show.
If you dont like it then dont buy it.
If you saw a deficiency in your mind at the boat show wouldnt others see it? Were Jeanneau hiding it? No. It was on display.

In the supermarket I can buy the beans from the highest priced company, or the home brand beans for cheaper. You and i know there is going to be differences in the beans or how else could we have saved a dollar on the cheap ones? You dont need a brain transplant from a higher universers to work out beans, why does one need it on boats. Buy what you want and can afford.

Low price point boats have opened the ability for people to buy a sail boat that only a few years ago was the realm of the rich and super rich.
Now with low price point boats and electronics normal average, every day people can cruise the world in higher safety and more comfort than those who did it 30 years ago. Perhaps thats the bug bear... Those that did it in the 70's or 80's dont like the uniqueness of their adventure diluted by all the Johnny Come Lately's.

Well I am one of those Johnnies. My goal on these forums is to get as many people out there doing it too and reading my new book: "Circumnavigating! It was Nice. Nothing Bad Happened."

So for those reading this thread: yes you can do it on a Cataline 40 or a Hunter 40 or a Beneteau 39. I know. Nothing bad is gunna happen.

Mark
PS Im not writing a book but thats the title I would use... It wouldnt sell too many books! To sell a book its gotta be called STORM! Or SURVIVAL!! Or DEATH BY BENETEAU! Or F ME that was a ROGUE WAVE! :laugher

 

Question becomes, "what is a production built boat?" To me, if it got listed in one of the granted out of production, "Worlds best boats" then it is a production boat. Oyster, swan, Morris are some of the higher priced production built boats. Jeanneau, beneteau, catalina et al are some of the lower price point built boats. The question becomes, what price can you afford?

Reality is, ANY of the current produced boats over 35' excepting a few cases due to design, will probably handle ANY current plans for one to cross oceans etc. They might not like Katrina style storms. but with todays forecasting etc, one should not get caught in a Karina.

While many say IP's are great boats, You could not give me one! A morris, swan, oyster etc, yes, same with jeanneau, beneteau and some of the other shall we call them Chevy/ford/dodge style boats. maybe even a Hunter.....probably not due to I do not like the look. But they would work.

Look at the ARC. Which brand has more boats than any other? vs which has the least? Jeanneau is #1, both for the atlantic arc, or the round the world arc. Oyster one of the fewest, probably due to cost. The Caribbean 1500, probably a bit different numbers, due to where the boats are built and what is built in NA. but still, more typical lower price point built boats than Oysters or equal. So with this in mind, overall, you can get from point A to B in a typical production built boat, be it a high end, or one of the lower price point boats.

I have a mid 80's Jeanneau, it will and has crossed oceans. Granted my personal boat has not crossed oceans, but others have!

Marty

 

Selecting your boat is a bit like selecting your home or your car. If you have unlimited funds, you can have whatever your heart desires, but if you are short on funds, you have to look at the low end of the spectrum.

For a boat, it seems to me that you can narrow the problem quite a bit by:

1) Define how much money you have to devote to this hobby or endeaver.
2) Will you be using the boat for coastal (inshore, close offshore, down to Bahamas, etc) or will you need "bluewater" capability (crossing oceans, circumnavigating)? Be honest.....not that many people circumnavigate. In tractor language, do you need a John Deere farm tractor (coastal) or a Caterpillar bulldozer (blue water)
3) What size will you need or do you want?
4) Will you buy used or slightly used or new....used = older Mercedes that you can maybe rebuild, slightly used = volvo or Lincoln, new = Chevrolet or Ford....all for same money.
5) Get one that you think is good looking...it'll give you pleasure just to walk down to the dock to admire it and think how lucky you are. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it's what you like, not what others suggest.

Talking about Morris or Oyster or even Island Packet makes no sense if you can't afford one.
If you are really going off shore (crossing oceans and circumnavigating), you have a different set of requirements ...extra heavy construction and rigging, lots of storage space, cockpit and equipment with ample backups for such a journey (wind/solar cell power, watermakers, radar, tankage for water and fuel, windvane steering, electronics, etc.), and so no one will be offended, handholds everywhere, and maybe a pilot berth. And, a third category is racing...will you be primarily racing? If so, you have a third set of demands...special sails and go fast design, etc.

If you will be going the coastal route, then the new designs with condo cabins and large cockpits make a lot of sense. That's where most of the production boats are ....Catalina, Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hunter, and others., and realistically, that is where most sailors are...you'll like the space and features. Even today's very large, high end boats are going the same way....look at the magazines.

There's lots of snobbery in boating....some of those old shoes that people talk fondly about are like that old Mercedes that has 250,000 miles, bent fenders and rust, with smoke coming out of it. And when they meet you, in your new Ford or Chevy, they tend to turn up their noses, after all, they have a Mercedes. Same with boats. The major boatbuilders, in my opinion, know better than most of us what most people want or need. They do a pretty good job at it too, giving a lot for the money. Truth is, most of the people that have an old shoe, it is because it's all they can afford, and there might even be a touch of jealously that your new or like new production boat (Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, etc.) has all those nice new features that they don't have.....buy older, you can get a bigger boat, or same size boat of fancy brand for the same money as the new or like new C/H/B. Your choice, whichever you like (you are buying for you and not what people on this list might like for themselves).

For a good number of years, reading and listening to people, I steered away from C/H/B because I tended to listen to all those tales about those boats, in some way, being substandard. Then one day, I faced how I would use the boat, decided that I wanted a new boat instead of an old one that I had to rework, I wanted one of a certain size, and had a certain amount of money that I was willing to put into this hobby item. I looked around, and the C/H/B group fit just fine. I bought a Catalina. Having owned it for 12 years and being completely satisfied with it, I now believe most of that talk about C/H/B being somehow inferior is a bunch of baloney. And Catalina (and I suspect all boat builders) have improved their offerings greatly over the years.

And could you take a C/H/B type production boat offshore on a long passage. My guess (and people seem to be proving it) is yes. Would it be the best for such usage, probably not, but in reality, it might be better than some older fancy brand boat that has been "upgraded", especially where the upgrade was by an amateur owner. If you look at some of the things that pull into port that are set up for long range cruising, there's a lot of junk that, somehow, successfully makes it. And also lots of really nice fancy boats that other people can afford, but perhaps not me or you.

A final thought: The beauty of sailing is that any of us, whatever our financial means, can enjoy sailing. If you have a few hundred dollars or a few million, there is a boat out there for you. The pleasure comes in the sailing, not how much you paid, or how big, or how fancy your boat is.

Less someone gets their shorts uptight and ask what my qualifications are, none. Just a guy who has been messing around for years. It just my opinion.

 

About sums it up perfectly for me, well said.

The beauty of sailing is that any of us, whatever our financial means, can enjoy sailing. If you have a few hundred dollars or a few million, there is a boat out there for you. The pleasure comes in the sailing, not how much you paid, or how big, or how fancy your boat is.

 

a final thought: The beauty of sailing is that any of us, whatever our financial means, can enjoy sailing. If you have a few hundred dollars or a few million, there is a boat out there for you. The pleasure comes in the sailing, not how much you paid, or how big, or how fancy your boat is.

+1!

 

A final thought: The beauty of sailing is that any of us, whatever our financial means, can enjoy sailing. If you have a few hundred dollars or a few million, there is a boat out there for you. The pleasure comes in the sailing, not how much you paid, or how big, or how fancy your boat is.

Good and true statement

Dont feel you have to settle either. You should " really like "the boat you choose. Some people like to follow the crowd and some like to be unique, some people like the designs with the raked bows and reverse transoms, some like the new plumb bows and teardrop windows, some like traditional ( like Victorian Homes) and some like modern. You can find all in a large number of used or new boat builders.

Some people choose the off brands because of quality differences. They may prefer to buy something a few years older because they like the warmth and feel of wood inside, the equipment is of higher quality. Its a trade off. Many people are very fond of the brand of boat and will stay loyal to their brand. Some see the value of a Mercedes 3 years old rather than the new Chevy. I dont think it would be fair to characterize people make choices because of snobbery as we are all brothers in sailing and I cant imagine buying a boat so I could be a snob about it unless it were the Maltese Falcon.

I see the beauty in all boats, but I dont have envy for boats I decided not to buy new or not, only for the 52 Outbound, The Hylas 56, The hinckley 42 SW...those I truly cannot afford to buy.

You get what you pay for. Sometimes thats not apparent when new but it is after 15 years or so in terms of repairs and resale value. Look for safety but most of all love it so you go sailing on her. No boat has everything but the boat you choose should have everything you like.

Choosing a boat is a very personal experience I have found and seen. I have bought two and am looking fopr my third. No matter what anyone advises me, I will choose like I bought my first two and like I have bought my houses. When I get on the right one, I know..makes no difference in the nameplate....after all you boat for many is like your second home. The most important factor is does it make you smile.

 

I have always been the 'Production Boat' proponent on Sailnet... especially Catalina. SO I suspect many of these comments will shock some folks. I still am a fan of certain models in each production builder, as much as I am not a fan of many models in each production builder. I think there are some great low-volume production builders, and there are some that I think really are junk. That in mind, here goes my opinions:

First, the build quality and finish out of a production boat (Bene/Jeaunneau/Catalina/Hunter) does not even compare to the high end builders. I kept both of my boats at the Valiant yard (380 and 400) and would not have my boat outfitted anywhere else that I know of. Not only did they know their stuff, but they always erred on the overbuilt side. There was a thread running here about anchor rollers a few days ago or so, where Mainesail showed a bent AR. I bent mine under on my 380 too during a very bad storm (95 kt straightline winds). DIdn't hurt the boat, just the roller. Well, I had my friends at Cedar Mills (Valiant) rebuild me a new anchor roller that was NOT going to get bent. Ever seen the AR on a Valiant or a Cabo? The bow will rip off before that thing bends under. And sorry... got a CS across from me. No comparrison. This is just one example. I have many others. THe bottom line is that the higher end production builders could afford to make those things that strong and there really is a big difference in their build quality in many things (not all things).

Second, there is a difference in philosophy when building a higher end production boat. FOr example, for those that have never toured a high-volume production boat yard, everything is already exactly layed out where it goes and literally fits into a perfect mold. It is an assembly line of workers, where each one has a set job and there is a long line of boats going down a row. Reminded me of Ford. At Valiant, however, they would have one boat up and build it from scratch. It was the same workers, each with their own strengths, but they built the boat in more of a 'garage' setting versus prodution line setting. THere was a lot more attention to detail. Most important here, if not one of the most important things of many of the low-volume/high end builders: they install their interior components AFTER installing the furniture. Seem like a little thing? Nope. Not for any of us that have ever had to do a major repair or replace. Because they install everything after the fact, it is realtively insured to be able to come out. That becomes very important down the line when components start to fail and have to be replaced. I remember one boat in particular of the high-volume builders that had tie rods going through the middle of cabinetry and the chain plates buried on top of the cabinetry. Not if, but when, the chain plates start leaking, you not only ruin your cabinetry but you also have a massive repair to rip them out and rebed. Terrible design. To be fair, I have never had anything on any Catalina I have owned that was not abloe to be removed. As the Tech Editor for the C400's, I am not aware of anything that cannot come out of these boats and be replaced. And do be aware, that not all low-volume builders shared this philosophy. Try pulling out the black iron fuel tanks on some of these old boats. I am not downing the other high-volume mfg's, just have never had first hand experience.

Third, I am not a fan of many of the new production boats. Many of these cockpits are very unfriendly to be at sea. THe new trend with everyone but Catalina are these large seats behind twin helms that do not slope, no coamings, no sloping coamings, pittiful little lazarettes, HUGE freeboards, marginally sized rigging, masts with inmast that leave no room for a wrinkle (it will happen), piss poor handhelds (if there are any at all). Down below, handhelds are marginal and often do not run the length of the boat, curved settees (I do use our settes as sea berths and have), horrid furniture... some with sharp angled edges, minimal cabinetry for storage, Ikea level wood, Above-waterline holding tanks, and poor ventilation. I have more things I can list, but since I just came off another (new) production boat an hour or so ago, these are the things that went through my mind. I honestly think it takes being on a boat, living on a boat, or spending some time at sea to pick these things out. I suspect the typical buyer at the boat show with little experience would not recognize many of the things I don't like. In fact, many of these things I don't like may well be big positives for them. My concern is that should they choose to take this vessel cruising, or do any long distance sailing, they will face real frustrations. As I will say later, many of the deficiencies of many production boats for long distance cruising and living aboard can be fixed. Many of the things I see with these new boats cannot.

Fourth, just because you have a high-end vessel doesn't mean you wont have issues. For example, I have an acquaintance who traded in his Catalina 36 on a Valiant 50. He was very frustrated with the lack of diagraming of his wiring and the runs. Some were where they shouldn't be and others were not where they should. That's what happens when you build a boat in that manner (explained above). On a Catalina, for example, they can prety much tell you to the millimeter where your wiring, plumbing, (enter item of choice) is located on the boat, what is a retrofit, and get it to you. Do NOT underestimate the incredible value in that. Catalina runs a fulltime shop where they take orders on boats LONG out of production, walk the owners through the issues they are having, and either get them parts and ship them or they help them locate a suitable alternative. There's not much that is going to happen on your Catalina they can't help you with. Also, because of the large volume, you have large owners groups and lots of avenues for problem-resolution outside of the manufacturer. Again, this is an enormous benefit of Catalinas at least that is too often downplayed.

Fifth, I find too many of the typical bluewater cruiser to be HORRIDLY slow. I also think this is often downplayed by others who often comment, "I'm cruising. I don't care how fast I go. I'll take my time." Bologna. Speed and a good performing boat is your friend. THe difference of just a knot can have a huge impact on your cruising. You might need to try and outrun an approaching storm or front. You are exposed to the elements much less. You will run your engine less because your boat does well under sail, thus increasing your potential range. THere are a multitude of reasons to have a good performing boat, but I cannot think of a single reason not to. Yet, many of the favorite boats often chosen on this forum cannot get out of their own way. THey make good SOG 5-6 kts. In some places, having that low of a SOG AVG means you are either leaving in the dark or arriving in the dark... neither of which make good sense to me.

Sixth, I am shocked at the prices of boats today... especially high-volume production boats. For example, the new 445 (the only Catalina I like as well as mine) is realistically going to be approaching 400k once you get it out the door and outfitted. You might get it under that some. I am quoting a dealer friend of mine. $400k? Really?? And even the low pricepoint Jeaunneus are 200-300k. Can you even buy a reasonable cruiser today, 36-38 feet, new, for under 200k? Geez... and that doesn't even include outfitting!!! Suddenly the price of many of these lower-volume production boats doesn't sound so bad. From where I sit, sailing sure seems to be getting more and more expensive and exclusive.

Lastly, a sailboat is filled with third party equipment. Your pumps, hoses, winches, spar, lines, engine(s), wiring, lighting, tanks, faucets... etc, etc, etc... that is all third party stuff folks. Yet I have read on here and elsewhere that a member is pointed away from a relatively new production boat for some old blue-water relic simply because of name. Even design and construction has changed over the years. As a broker friend of mine (and very well travelled sailor) said to me just the other day: buy newer. There is nothing wrong with some of those old boats, but you better darn good and well know what you are getting into beforehand. Because outside of the hull/molding, there's not a lot more about that boat that wasn't bought from a vendor and may well be the exact same piece of equipment as you have in your production boat. Buyer beware.

Just a few of my opinions,

Brian

 

I have always been the 'Production Boat' proponent on Sailnet... especially Catalina. SO I suspect many of these comments will shock some folks. I still am a fan of certain models in each production builder, as much as I am not a fan of many models in each production builder. I think there are some great low-volume production builders, and there are some that I think really are junk. That in mind, here goes my opinions:

First, the build quality and finish out of a production boat (Bene/Jeaunneau/Catalina/Hunter) does not even compare to the high end builders. I kept both of my boats at the Valiant yard (380 and 400) and would not have my boat outfitted anywhere else that I know of. Not only did they know their stuff, but they always erred on the overbuilt side. There was a thread running here about anchor rollers a few days ago or so, where Mainesail showed a bent AR. I bent mine under on my 380 too during a very bad storm (95 kt straightline winds). DIdn't hurt the boat, just the roller. Well, I had my friends at Cedar Mills (Valiant) rebuild me a new anchor roller that was NOT going to get bent. Ever seen the AR on a Valiant or a Cabo? The bow will rip off before that thing bends under. And sorry... got a CS across from me. No comparrison. This is just one example. I have many others. THe bottom line is that the higher end production builders could afford to make those things that strong and there really is a big difference in their build quality in many things (not all things).

Second, there is a difference in philosophy when building a higher end production boat. FOr example, for those that have never toured a high-volume production boat yard, everything is already exactly layed out where it goes and literally fits into a perfect mold. It is an assembly line of workers, where each one has a set job and there is a long line of boats going down a row. Reminded me of Ford. At Valiant, however, they would have one boat up and build it from scratch. It was the same workers, each with their own strengths, but they built the boat in more of a 'garage' setting versus prodution line setting. THere was a lot more attention to detail. Most important here, if not one of the most important things of many of the low-volume/high end builders: they install their interior components AFTER installing the furniture. Seem like a little thing? Nope. Not for any of us that have ever had to do a major repair or replace. Because they install everything after the fact, it is realtively insured to be able to come out. That becomes very important down the line when components start to fail and have to be replaced. I remember one boat in particular of the high-volume builders that had tie rods going through the middle of cabinetry and the chain plates buried on top of the cabinetry. Not if, but when, the chain plates start leaking, you not only ruin your cabinetry but you also have a massive repair to rip them out and rebed. Terrible design. To be fair, I have never had anything on any Catalina I have owned that was not abloe to be removed. As the Tech Editor for the C400's, I am not aware of anything that cannot come out of these boats and be replaced. And do be aware, that not all low-volume builders shared this philosophy. Try pulling out the black iron fuel tanks on some of these old boats. I am not downing the other high-volume mfg's, just have never had first hand experience.

Third, I am not a fan of many of the new production boats. Many of these cockpits are very unfriendly to be at sea. THe new trend with everyone but Catalina are these large seats behind twin helms that do not slope, no coamings, no sloping coamings, pittiful little lazarettes, HUGE freeboards, marginally sized rigging, masts with inmast that leave no room for a wrinkle (it will happen), piss poor handhelds (if there are any at all). Down below, handhelds are marginal and often do not run the length of the boat, curved settees (I do use our settes as sea berths and have), horrid furniture... some with sharp angled edges, minimal cabinetry for storage, Ikea level wood, Above-waterline holding tanks, and poor ventilation. I have more things I can list, but since I just came off another (new) production boat an hour or so ago, these are the things that went through my mind. I honestly think it takes being on a boat, living on a boat, or spending some time at sea to pick these things out. I suspect the typical buyer at the boat show with little experience would not recognize many of the things I don't like. In fact, many of these things I don't like may well be big positives for them. My concern is that should they choose to take this vessel cruising, or do any long distance sailing, they will face real frustrations. As I will say later, many of the deficiencies of many production boats for long distance cruising and living aboard can be fixed. Many of the things I see with these new boats cannot.

Fourth, just because you have a high-end vessel doesn't mean you wont have issues. For example, I have an acquaintance who traded in his Catalina 36 on a Valiant 50. He was very frustrated with the lack of diagraming of his wiring and the runs. Some were where they shouldn't be and others were not where they should. That's what happens when you build a boat in that manner (explained above). On a Catalina, for example, they can prety much tell you to the millimeter where your wiring, plumbing, (enter item of choice) is located on the boat, what is a retrofit, and get it to you. Do NOT underestimate the incredible value in that. Catalina runs a fulltime shop where they take orders on boats LONG out of production, walk the owners through the issues they are having, and either get them parts and ship them or they help them locate a suitable alternative. There's not much that is going to happen on your Catalina they can't help you with. Also, because of the large volume, you have large owners groups and lots of avenues for problem-resolution outside of the manufacturer. Again, this is an enormous benefit of Catalinas at least that is too often downplayed.

Fifth, I find too many of the typical bluewater cruiser to be HORRIDLY slow. I also think this is often downplayed by others who often comment, "I'm cruising. I don't care how fast I go. I'll take my time." Bologna. Speed and a good performing boat is your friend. THe difference of just a knot can have a huge impact on your cruising. You might need to try and outrun an approaching storm or front. You are exposed to the elements much less. You will run your engine less because your boat does well under sail, thus increasing your potential range. THere are a multitude of reasons to have a good performing boat, but I cannot think of a single reason not to. Yet, many of the favorite boats often chosen on this forum cannot get out of their own way. THey make good SOG 5-6 kts. In some places, having that low of a SOG AVG means you are either leaving in the dark or arriving in the dark... neither of which make good sense to me.

Sixth, I am shocked at the prices of boats today... especially high-volume production boats. For example, the new 445 (the only Catalina I like as well as mine) is realistically going to be approaching 400k once you get it out the door and outfitted. You might get it under that some. I am quoting a dealer friend of mine. $400k? Really?? And even the low pricepoint Jeaunneus are 200-300k. Can you even buy a reasonable cruiser today, 36-38 feet, new, for under 200k? Geez... and that doesn't even include outfitting!!! Suddenly the price of many of these lower-volume production boats doesn't sound so bad. From where I sit, sailing sure seems to be getting more and more expensive and exclusive.

Lastly, a sailboat is filled with third party equipment. Your pumps, hoses, winches, spar, lines, engine(s), wiring, lighting, tanks, faucets... etc, etc, etc... that is all third party stuff folks. Yet I have read on here and elsewhere that a member is pointed away from a relatively new production boat for some old blue-water relic simply because of name. Even design and construction has changed over the years. As a broker friend of mine (and very well travelled sailor) said to me just the other day: buy newer. There is nothing wrong with some of those old boats, but you better darn good and well know what you are getting into beforehand. Because outside of the hull/molding, there's not a lot more about that boat that wasn't bought from a vendor and may well be the exact same piece of equipment as you have in your production boat. Buyer beware.

Just a few of my opinions,

Brian

I read a few pages of replies, then things start to go down hill.

This post struck me as pretty good because it enumerated a lot of factors without settling into a "best" solution.

We have 2 custom boats and I like both very much, they work well for me and how I use them. It is a very personal thing.

I have looked at buying another boat, sometimes the steel issue get to me. But I would give up a lot, and I would be embracing a different construction I know very little about.

The question arises, did we domesticated cats and dogs or did they domesticated humans? Kinda like that for my boats, did I find the perfect boat TWICE, or did I just adapt to the boat perfectly?

 

Well written Brian especially your last three points.

 

I raced a Swan 65 across the Atlantic a few years ago. Sturdily built boat. Bilt like a brick outhouse.

But i would hate it for cruising! Hard, harsh, no galley but a commercial kitchen, no softness, no privacy (pilot berths in the saloon) no wall coverings just wooden slats... A total mans racing boat and a hideuos cruising boat for a female.

I would much prefer the MUCH cheaper Beneteau 54 or the Jeaneay 57 than a Swan 65.

 

Brad - I was the one that started that thread PCP linked to in the second post.

Bottom line, virtually any production boat will take you virtually anywhere you want to go in the world if it's in good shape and you don't get yourself into crazy weather.

I'd say this argument was definitively put to bed (at least in my mind) by this guy who took a Hunter 49 around Cape Horn in an F-11 storm:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/sequitur/

'Nuff said.

 

I'd say this argument was definitively put to bed (at least in my mind) by this guy who took a Hunter 49 around Cape Horn in an F-11 storm:

Sequitur

'Nuff said.

It might have been, if Michael had ACTUALLY taken Sequitur "around" the Horn in a F-11 storm... (grin)

Not to disparage Michael's accomplishments with that boat in any way, they were VERY impressive, no doubt... But, simply for the sake of accuracy, that's not really what he did....

 

John,

Good or bad deck design can be on high or low end boats. While CD likes to talk about catalina in a good way, I know of two locally that I would NOT want. One is a C34 with the halyard lines trying to go thru, yes go thru the built in fiberglass risers for the cabin top mainsheet traveler. Obviously it will not go thru so it goes around it rubbing.

This is probably the same issue with another poster that sold his third Catalina, and went with a CS36 over his preferred choice of a C36. Both the C30, 34, and 36 had deck organizers placed such that the lines from the mast did not thread easily to the cabin top.

This is not to say Catalina's do not have positives. I personally believe they do. Even still, there are problems. I could probably find the same issue with an Oyster or Swan If I really had to look. My Jeanneau has some issues too. But like all things great and small, one needs to fix or correct them if one is going to be on them a lot.

Valients have positives about them......but still are built to older school techniques if one will, hense why they probably went out of biz, just as another did recently with good style boats for the era they were designed in.

At the end of the day, there is NOT a perfect boat! Even a 1-2 million dollar boat will have issues. Having been in the home building industry for 30 yrs, yeah bat building is different, yet the same, in that many builders build to a price point. the framing and structure part is the same! Just how much bling and type you put on it!

As this thread starts to go in the same direction that smackies original thread did! At the end of the day, does the boat meat your expectations of what you want it to do. Both looks, can you get around, live in it, like the looks etc.

Marty

 

Smack,

Either way you look at it, getting around the horn i one piece is a good thing. I also know of a 34' mid 80s Jeanneau that did a non stop around the horns also! I do feel Jeanneau builds a better boat than Hunter, but reality is, probably not by much. Kinda of a Chebby vs buick or olds difference. Or maybe a kia vs chebby or some such thing.

marty

 

Jeanneau builds a better boat than Hunter, but reality is, probably not by much.
marty

I would say by a lot.
Hunter is in Bankruptcy and Jeanneau is one of the top selling brand names in the world and is fully owned by CNB which is the top selling boat manufacturer in the world. Thats a huge difference.

You become number one by having a great product.

You become bankrupt because you are not number 1.

 

Hunter is in BK more due to the parent which also owns a number of power boat makes. That is the side that is BK! The Hunter portion had to go with the parent. Hunter will probably come out alive IMHO. For that matter, Jeanneau also was BK in the mid 80s, but being as it was french, when bangor-punta the parent went BK, the French gvmnt had a buyer/take over person that sold to Group Beneteau, which has allowed Jeanneau to take over as the overal #1 boat builder in the world with their PB range being pretty large. There is also a inflatable line that was the Fench maker that also went BK, in which GB also took over. Going back to BP's BK in the 80's, they also owner Cal, O'Day and Ranger IIRC along with a few others that are no where to be found other than used today. Henri Jeanneau that started that company, did start with high power motor boats, later switching to fiberglass, then a sailboat in the late 60s from is initial start in the later 50's.

many manufactures have gone thru some tough times and come out swinging. Hopefully while I do not like the Hunter line for various and sundry reasons, nothing major, I do hope it comes out swinging in the end! still building boats etc. WE in NAmerica need boat builders/manufacturing jobs etc. Not all of us can be puter key pushers!

Jeanneau/beneateau/lagoon do build in high tech factories, keeping things pretty tight as far as materials go etc, so they can build at a profit. Jeanneau does have some 30 and 33' boats one can get into for less than 150K base, out the door for less than 200K, but that still takes a 100-200K salary minimum to afford this with a home etc. Still out of the range of an ave income earner of 50K here in NA!

Marty

 

I think it really comes down to one thing. Would you like to be sailing a boat that can take a hit from a container in 40 knots of wind without damage, or not?
Some manufacturers have a reputation for strength and quality, others have fans.

 

Hold on, you hit a partially submerged container, in 40 kts wind, and you did no damage? What do you sail? How fast were you going? 40 kts of wind is gale+ conditions... how large were the seas? How did you know it was a container? WOuld love to hear that story.

Brian

 

It happened between Newport and Bermuda, November 2010. It was dark so I really cannot answer the waves question, possibly 12 feet??? Probably sailing at 5 to 6 knots, reefed and beating into SE winds, but I wasn't on the wheel so I don't know for sure.
It was a tremendous "bang" and threw us on our beam ends, as it either came down the face of a wave or we slammed into it, just aft of the main shrouds at the waterline. We noticed a piece of the boot stripe missing at that spot when we got in the dink in the VI.
I've hit a whale before and that's like punching flesh; this was an extremely hard, solid hit that threw a 38 ton vessel on her beam ends instantly. I do not know for a fact that it was a container, but it's my best guess and the lost paint is sort a of square bit, like the corner of a container would make.
The boat was a Pearson.

 

Capta so you dont know at all if it was a container. You dont even know the size of the waves but you know the unseen loud bang was a container? That wont stand up in court.

We fell off a wave once in another boat and when we hit the bottom there was a tremendous crash, absolutly tremendous smashing sound that had us in the bilges looking for leaks. When we haulded the boat later we saw the indentation in the antifouling of a turtle shell.

And not a big turtle at that.

 

Capta so you dont know at all if it was a container. You dont even know the size of the waves but you know the unseen loud bang was a container? That wont stand up in court.
We fell off a wave once in another boat and when we hit the bottom there was a tremendous crash, absolutly tremendous smashing sound that had us in the bilges looking for leaks. When we haulded the boat later we saw the indentation in the antifouling of a turtle shell. And not a big turtle at that.

Your absolutely right, I do not know for a fact that it was a container we hit.
But to go from rolling to port to having the stb rail in the water virtually instantly, and moving sideways to stb away from whatever we hit with water nearly entering the cockpit from leeward, I don't know what else it could have been. I've fallen off waves in a very strong norther in the stream and other places with a lot of noise, hit a few pretty big logs in the PNW and numerous other things at sea and have never had a boat thrown so quickly and violently on her side.
I had absolutely no idea at the time, and like you, I thought it was a large wave hitting the rubrail, but when we got in the dink and saw the lost paint square, it seemed a logical conclusion. Others sailors saw the lost paint and agreed that it was distinctly possible that we had hit a container.
I really don't need to make up stories, what exactly would I stand to gain from it? I do not seek attention or approval from anyone; OK, maybe a little from my girlfriend. We were full of fuel, water and stores, never mind the masses of spares we all carry when departing on an extended cruise to the Caribbean, on a very heavy, fairly large boat. It certainly wasn't a turtle, nor a whale; but I am open to any other realistic suggestions.
And just to clarify another point; I am in no way, nor have I ever intended to say that all production boats are poorly built or of low quality. There are numerous high quality production boats on the market, new and old that IMO would be wonderful, safe and comfortable cruisers.
Curiously, these discussions seem to be about the "seaworthiness" of various boats, with little mention of comfort, at sea or at anchor. IMO, "livability" or comfort is a very important feature in a cruising boat, as we all spend much more time at anchor than underway.
If a boat hobbyhorses violently underway, or rolls horribly at anchor in a small swell, wouldn't that be something anyone, as a prospective buyer, would like to know? In Hawaii, a friend who did not know how to sail, bought an Ingrid, a boat I thought was the bee's knees in cruisers. I was so excited when he asked me to go out with him a few times to show him a bit about sailing it. It was shocking at how much that boat hobbyhorsed in small chop. I have seen what appeared to be excellently designed cruising boats become almost unlivable in a small swell at anchor, this summer in Prickly Bay, Grenada. One in particular (I do not know the design or manufacturer), a 48' to 52' ketch, (a boat I would have bought, had I found her for sale when I purchased our present boat, in a heartbeat!) that almost rolled her rails under when most other boats were doing OK. The owner set up a bridle on the anchor to bring the bow into the swells, but then the boat began to pitch violently. We watched in awe, literally. This was a beautiful, heavy displacement cruiser I would guess was built between 1970 and 1986. Boy was I happy I hadn't bought that boat!
I've no idea what it would be like living on and cruising a boat like the Hanse 415, for instance. Does the deep fin keel inhibit or enhance rolling? I am not denigrating the boat, only asking.
I got lucky; I purchased this boat because the Pearsons I have sailed, none of which was a 530 by the way, seemed well built and had a good over all reputation. It had most of the features I wanted in the last boat I'd ever own and the price was right. With the centerboard it is usually quite comfortable at anchor and sails much better than I thought it would. I honestly thought it was a motorsailor when I bought her; how wrong I was! But again, I got very very lucky.
Since we can't agree on seaworthiness of various boats, perhaps we can put forth some constructive information on the "livability" of boats that forum members are considering purchasing?

 

Okay, Mark, that's not nearly as exciting as a container.

 

Read this thread on Xmas morn and bless the Lord I was able to build a semi custom boat. Our learned contributors note the crew is the weak link is sailing. They do not stress that on a semi custom boat you have the comfort knowing everything is stronger then needed, everything is set up to meet your needs and sensibilities. When you get in the bad stuff you worry about what's important- not the boat failing you. I've spent the last ten years planning my escape. Figured it's worth getting rid of the "toys" ( motorcycles, cars, downsizing the house etc.) to be able to afford the boat I want. Wife knows the fancy vacations, clothes,furniture etc. is a thing of the past. You are betting your life on your boat. What's your life worth to you. They say "if you didn't bring it with you -your don't have it". What they don't say is that's true in the hours before anyone will show up in a coastal setting as well as in the middle of the ocean. Coastal cruising is packed with more potential dangers. It's the hard edges, ships and breaking waves that sink you. Features I thought important
good gyradius and >120 degrees capsize quotient
solid glass hull
internal lead ballast with bulb
non metallic tanks
No balsa, no wood anywhere as structural element
manifold to limit thro hulls
Not dependent on form stability, good comfort motion
All systems accessible for repair or replacement
Designed with "blue water" in mind
collision bulkhead
prop on a shaft
Fast and weatherly

I have nowhere the experience of some other respondants but have done multiple Bermudas and long transports. Been in the 50kt+ storms. Been knocked down, have had the floorboards floating, pooped, watched the hull "oilcan" when the in fill of a "production" boat let go,been called overdue with the Coastguard out looking for us.

If you can afford a semi custom boat - go for it. Evertime you sit in the dinghy and look back you will know you made the right decision. If you can't afford it look at used boats that were single owners and well maintained. Rather be on a twenty year old Shannon,Cherubini, Valiant, PSC, Mason etc. then worry what some hungover line worker did. Want the safety factor of all systems to be in mulitples.

 

Hi all. It has been a LONG time since I've visited SN, and I hope everyone has been well!

Even after a few years (literally) of being away from here, I see the exact same discussion persists -- the merits of production boats. Too funny. You know what they say, the more things change ...

I was part of that prior thread started by Smacky, and a few other similar ones. At the time, I had just taken delivery of our then-new Bene 49. Having come from a more higher-end boat before the Bene, and now having had about 5 years with her, and considering that this discussion rages on, I figure my experience might be of interest.

We've used our boat pretty meaningfully. We don't live aboard or cruise full time, but we've put our fair share of miles under her keel, mostly coastal, but we've been offshore plenty, including Bermuda, and offshore runs lasting more than 24 hours. We do live aboard for weeks at a time with our family (admiral, two boys and our pooch). After that sample set of use, here's my view:

1. As a general matter, I like the boat quite a bit. In most respects, she has exceeded my expectations. She is quite fast, both under sail and power, she is very comfortable, and she feels more solid at sea than I expected. She can pound a little, but nothing like my Bayfield (though our Freedom never pounded ever). She also has held up better than I thought she would. Five years in, with a lot of use, and two rambunctious boys who climb, swing, pull, poke and prod, I was expecting to have to refit her a bit by now, but that's just not the case. In fairness, we are pretty religious about maintenance, and don't let things go when it appears we might have a problem, but I expected to have needed more work by now. This is not to say that she doesn't have her shortcomings, which I'll get to below.

2. For all those who say the cockpits and cabins on modern boats don't work at sea, I respectfully disagree, at least as to our boat. The cockpit certainly is large, but we've been at sea in some weather (nothing like hurricane strength, but gale force), and we never felt insecure in the cockpit. Plenty of footholds, good high bridgedeck, and plenty of strong attachment points to clip in. Down below, we had no trouble rigging lee cloths for sea berths, cooking in some sporty conditions, and we were able to make our way around down below without drama, even in a seaway.

3. She seems able to handle offshore duty, at least as between the east coast and Bermuda and various points in between. I've not experienced Force 10 conditions, so I can't speak to that, but we've had our fair share of snottiness, including some elephants in the Stream. We've also given her some tests on our way around the Cape (Cod, not Horn). I'm not seeing any evidence of moving bulkheads, leaking chainplates/stantions/hatches/fittings, weeping rudder post, unexplained water in the bilge, or any of the other indices of a hull and deck working in a seaway. In short, I'm satisfied the boat can handle the conditions we'll put her in, and I have developed confidence in her hull, deck and rig.

4. Speaking of the rig, one of the concerns I had when taking delivery was the furling mast, particularly for offshore work. Those concerns have been allayed. The system has performed flawlessly, without a hitch, even in reasonably heavy weather offshore. I've been able to furl, deploy, and reef the main, by hand, without the need for a winch, in all conditions. In fairness, because it was an area of concern for me, I've been all over it in terms of maintenance, inspection, and careful/deliberate use. A limitation, however, is that you really need to have the boat pointed into the wind in order to furl. In lighter air you can cheat on this a little, but as the wind builds it becomes important.

5. At anchor, she's nothing short of spectacular. The cockpit is awesome, and the ventilation is great, with many opening hatches and ports. I easily could live on this boat, and hope to! This aspect, I'm sure, is no surprise to anyone.

6. We did do a lot of upgrading on stuff that I consider important. For instance, we swapped out the through hulls to install proper seacocks, and we moved a few that were located in absurd locations (base of a ladder into the forward deck locker? Forward of the engine when the raw water intake is aft? What were they thinking?!?!). We added backing plates for all the cleats and the main traveler (came with large fender washers). We re-plumbed the heads, and we did a bunch of other stuff too, but I'm not bothering to list it all here. We certainly didn't do anything particularly "structural," save for reinforcing the transom for the davits.

7. In terms of stuff that I've found frustrating, Beneteau does not use the best parts for what I'll call less mission-critical applications. For instance, the latches for the cabinets are flat out awful, and I've replaced and upgraded just about all of them at this point. The domestic faucets are crummy quality. The original bilge pumps are not high enough capacity, in my view. The air conditioning system is not the best, and the engineering for removing condensate is absurdly poor, as the tiny little pumps fail all the time.

8. Storage. It's a little light in the master cabin, but we've been able to make up for it by using lockers located elsewhere. It's not overwhelming, but I'd describe the storage as sufficient, and we do bring tons of "stuff" with us. Deck storage actually is great (three large lockers in the cockpit, and a massive one on deck).

9. Tankage. Never a strong suit for mass-produced boats, and ours was no different. She came with 65 gallons of fuel, and 130 of water. We added a 35 gallon fuel tank, so now we carry 100 gallons of diesel. It's worked for us, but that could be a problem for serious and extended offshore work.

10. The interior furniture and joinery quality is OK, but not great. I think this is one of the areas where the price point really shows. You go down below in a Swan, Hinckley or Sabre, and you feel a sense of craftsmanship in the furniture and other woodwork that just isn't there for the mass-production boats. There's no getting around the difference in this area. The higher-end boats are just nicer, particularly down below.

Here are two links from a trip to/from Bermuda. As you'll see, we had much better weather going than coming, and as we all know, video/pictures never does it justice:

To Bermuda:

From Bermuda:

In the end, I pretty much agree with Brian on his assessment, though not necessarily on the cost front. While even production boats are expensive by any rational standard, more limited production, higher-end boats still cost multiples. So whereas it might cost $400,000 for a BeneHuntaLina, that same size Sabre/Swan will cost two to three times as much, if not more. And like everything else in life, if you can afford the higher quality, and it suits your needs, more power to you!