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Pros and cons for a double ender/Canoe Stern

58K views 76 replies 28 participants last post by  mad_machine  
#1 ·
I have started the long process of buying my first sailboat. I'm trying to get it right on the first try. Yeah, I know it will not be perfect but I would like to get something that I don't dread looking at 6 months down the road. I recently found a "Top 10 Favorite Affordable Bluewater Sailboats" list. I'm sure the author of this list has his own opinions but one thing that I noticed from the list is that
a lot of the boats shared a common design, they were
Double Enders or Canoe Sterns. Could I get some opinions from some of you with experience concerning these designs versus a wider stern? If there has already been a thread like this that one can refer me to, please do so. A search didn't show anything. Thank-you in advance for any helpful advise you can give me.
 
#2 ·
They look beautiful. But beyond that, I'm not sure there are really any advantages of a canoe stern/double-ender. Recall reading posts from Bob Perry asserting as much.

A *huge* cone is the loss of massive amounts of space in the stern area below and a much tighter/smaller cockpit. Especially compared to modern designs that have a tendency to have a very huge stern beam and open areas of the cockpit to allow water to flow out if a wave hits ya. Canoe stern, well, I think you're relying on scuppers draining and/or downflooding the living spaces!
 
#18 ·
Thanks for the post.. You are dead on speaking of Bob Perry. This same website that I found the 10 affordable Bluewater Sailboats list on also had an interview with Bob Perry. He designed a few but still seemed to wonder why someone would want a boat to sail in reverse. In my opinion he mainly said it was a marketing issue. Having a "dry" , safe and stable boat would be among my top priorities. Once again, Thank-You.
 
#5 ·
I am cruising with a double ender. Never been pooped so I'd love to see facts on that one Mark. Smaller cockpits, absolutely ... Just like you want in a sea going boat. Not nocking modern designs. Open transoms would drain fast, but the main reason for that design is to hold all the dock parties most of these boats do most of the time (Mark not included).

Double enders are safe, secure and sensible sea boats. Best of all, they look good -- not like some motorboat wannabe ;-)
 
#6 ·
My friend has a canoe stern, and he was extolling the virtues of that design to me at some point. I, of course, promptly forgot what they were because his boat's WAY out of my financial and experiential leagues so the info didn't stick into my admittedly "Need-to-know" based brain. I'll probably talk to him today while we're out on the water and I'll ask him again. May have had something to do with comfort with following seas?

Barry
 
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#19 ·
My friend has a canoe stern, and he was extolling the virtues of that design to me at some point. I, of course, promptly forgot what they were because his boat's WAY out of my financial and experiential leagues so the info didn't stick into my admittedly "Need-to-know" based brain. I'll probably talk to him today while we're out on the water and I'll ask him again. May have had something to do with comfort with following seas?

Barry
Thanks for your input. I too had read that following seas were more easily dealt with. But I was concerned with stability and how much stability might be lost with a canoe stern. Thank-You- Sam
 
#7 · (Edited)
A canoe stern is not just a canoe stern. Some of them do not have much volume aft, and might be pooped more easily than the ones with a wider behind. From reading "Yacht Design According to Perry", you'll learn that he tried giving the Valiant 40 a large a s s to ensure there was enough volume. So a Valiant probably wouldn't be pooped where a Westsail would?
Other than that any boat can probably get pooped, I've certainly experienced a wave in the cockpit in confused seas in Norway.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I apologize in advance that this is quite long and I worte it for another purpose but it is a detailed discussion of double enders which starts with a bit of history.

When you look at really old double enders (Egyptian passenger barges, Viking ship, canoes, Skerry traders) you see some things in common. As a broad generality, for their era, these vessels all tended to be quite light and fast and intended to be propelled at pretty high speeds with comparatively little power. The traditional (up until the late 19th century) double ender actually had very fine ends and a burdensome mid-section. This shape was evolved for speed and seaworthiness in low powered (low stability), low volume vessels.

This fine-ended double ender was a great shape for rough sea conditions. In theory, when a boat is running before breaking waves its own wake can disturb the waves astern and cause them to break. These fine-ended double enders threw smaller wakes and so were less likely to cause waves too break on them from astern. If a wave did break, the wave did not collide with the flat surface of a transom. (That is also the same reason that the transoms on traditional boats had as much rake as they did.)

That all works well for light weight working craft with minimal sources of power. As these boats became more burdensome, they began to have a different set of problems. One of the key problems with the more heavily loaded fine ended double enders were that they did not have as much reserve buoyancy as transom sterned boats and waves might not break in their wake but they would get pooped (flooded from astern by overtaking wave).

The Roman and medieval cargo ships, which are well known to researchers, were all double enders below and above the waterline but light displacement they most certainly were not - the cogs, shuyts and fluyts of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance were capacious, slow, cargo carriers.

The reasons that these ships, and most European fishing boats until recently, be they Norwegian, Scottish, Danish, Dutch, Spanish, Maltese or Greek, are double enders are twofold; One is that this type of stern is easy, reliable, and nearly as cheap to build in wood.

Another reason for the early use of double ends is that these working vessels had/have to lie alongside each other in close proximity in artificial harbors. The double ender is less likely to suffer damage from boats alongside. In such circumstances you find double enders.

Elsewhere, like the Breton coast of France or the East Coast of England, where the sea conditions are just as bad, but there are natural harbors, estuaries, etc. you find transom sterns and counter sterns. The transom stern gives more buoyancy aft and is better suited to a high displacement hull, while being nearly equally cheap to build. The counter stern gives a drier after deck (important in sailing ships, which were conned from the poop) and more space for handling sails (and nets, on fishing boats)

It is at that point in the 1800's that Colin Archer comes along in the search for a way to make boats that would not cause waves to break but that would also have sufficient reserve buoyancy in the ends. When you study the lines of a Colin Archer design they were really amazing. These were not delicate boats by any stretch of the imagination. They were truly beefy. They had to be. They were rescue boats and pilot boats that had to be able to stand station in the worst the North Seas had to offer and still make a rendezvous. They needed to be able to sail in light air, and they had to be able to lie against a stranded ship and take the pounding while rescuing people and property. They earned a reputation for their seaworthiness and ability to withstand the worst nature had to offer.

Archer was a theorist and was looking for a way to design powerful boats with powerful rigs that would still remain balanced. Archer also had a tremendous ability to model the lines of these heavy boats so that they had a fairness of line and fineness of water line that is not readily apparent at first glance. They are deceptive boats in many ways. For all of their weight they were reasonably easily driven boats. They were capable of spreading really huge sail plans or being snugged down to a handkerchief

By all descriptions that I have ever read these were not easy boats to sail. These were not the “sailed by a man and a boy” fine ended double ender epitomized by boats like the Tancock Whalers popularized in the fisheries off of Nova Scotia. They took large crews and a lot of brute strength to sail and to some extent they also survived on the iron wills of their crew.

Then along comes Atkins, who takes the Colin Archer rescue boats and adapts them into yachts. Atkins like Archer is a master of the carefully modeled hull form and in many ways his “Ingrid” is the definitive example of a successful Colin Archer type yacht. Comparatively fine yet buoyant and burdensome, the 'Ingrid's are a masterful example of the art of yacht design with the emphasis on art. I keep hearing people refer to these boats as fast. They are fast for what they are, but in a relative sense, even in heavy going, they are not fast when compared to more modern designs.

They also reputedly have very comfortable motions in a seaway. I suspect that that is more a product of their round bottom, and wine glass sections more than their double ends. The 'Ingrid's and 'Eric's did wonders for instilling the idea that double ended yachts represent some kind of ideal for distance cruising. This notion of the ideal was further embedded by the ubiquitous Hanna Tahiti and Gulfweed Ketches.

By the late 1960’s double enders began to be viewed as relics of the past. Well-modeled double enders are not easy to mould in fiberglass since there was often some tumblehome in the stern making it hard to removed them from a single part mould.

It probably would have stayed like that if the character boat craze had not gotten started in the early 1970’s. At the time the whole character boat thing was hard to fathom. After decades, suddenly bowsprits and molded in plank seams were getting popular. (If you actually owned a wooden boat you went to great lengths to conceal the seams and make the topsides look “just like fiberglass” but suddenly fiberglass boats were being built showing 'seams'.)

Emerging in the early days of that period of looking backwards, the Westsail 32 came on the scene. The Westsail 32 is a fiberglass version of the Atkins ‘Eric’ altered to supply more room down below and be easier to mold in glass. The Westsail pretty quickly became an icon for the “serious Blue water cruising boat”. Derided as heavy, slow and wet, with many were bought by posers and wannabes, in reality the Westsails have proven to be enduring boats with an admirable cruising record.

What the Westsails and boats like them did was to bring a focus on the growing gap between “cruiser-racers” and purpose built offshore boats. It was about that time that a young Bob Perry happened on the scene. I have always believed that Bob’s goal in designing the Valiant 40 was to design a boat that bridged this gap. Seen today the Valiant 40 seems very solid and conservative but in its day the Valiant 40 was revolutionary. If you look at the sections and underbody waterlines of the Valiant, they were remarkably far more similar to the early Sparkman and Stephens designed IOR boats (like the Tartan 41) than to anything that Colin Archer designed. Obviously a bit more burdensome, the Valiant 40 dared to be a moderate displacement (for the time) boat with a fin keel/ spade rudder intended for serious offshore cruising.

I also suspect form articles that I have seen over the years that the trunk cabin and canoe stern were chosen not for some inherent obvious sailing or seakeeping advantage but as a clear statement that the Valiant 40 was and is intended as a serious offshore boat. If you look carefully at the stern of a Valiant 40 it in no ways really resembles the traditional canoe stern chosen for low wave making and low drag. This is a very powerful stern consistent with the Valiant's more modern lines and underbody.

Of course for every brilliant design idea there are a bunch of bone headed copies. Having drawn a few double enders in my day, I really think that they take more skill than any other hull form to get right. Poorly done they are awkward in appearance and offer few of the advantages with all of the disadvantages of a double ender. Perry got it right, (to my eye, perhaps more so on the 37 foot Esprit), but a lot of designers never did. Designers like Garden, Benford, and Crealock have designed many a fine double ender, but I think Bob Perry was there at the right time with a design that really understood the problem and looked good doing it.

So back to the original question, “What are the advantages and disadvantages of a double ender?”

If the stern is not carefully modeled and matched to the other properties of the design, there are not any inherent advantages to a double ender; none at all. Properly designed in the fine-ended model, they offer a lower resistance at slow speeds, less wave making and a cleaner wake less likely to cause waves to break astern. Properly modeled in canoe stern model, they offer a lot of reserve buoyancy in the ends with a minimum stern overhang for reduced hobby horsing. They also offer less corners for lines to foul on which was far more important in the days of Gaff Rigs with booms that over hung the transom.

The disadvantage is that a double enders tend top have quite a bit less room aft for their length than a transom stern boat. This means a more cramped cockpit (or aft cabin). In terms of sailing performance, with modern rigs and underbodies it is harder to get a canoe stern boat to work with modern underbodies which are designed to surf and sometimes plane. This means that they are not suitable to today’s lighter faster design principles. Its not an issue if your interest is in a heavier, more burdensome, long range cruiser but if your goal is coastal cruising or performance offshore cruising, where speed becomes more important than carrying a lot of ‘stuff’ in a short sailing length, then a canoe stern might not make sense. Canoe stern boats can be a bit more expensive to manufacture in glass as they often require special molds to handle the tumblehome in the stern.

From a sailing standpoint, most double endere give away some initial stability which translates to reduced sail carrying capability and with that, the need to reduce sail sooner. Unless long and narrow, they lack the 'bearing' to achieve decent reaching and motoring speeds without the stern squatting and greatly increasing drag and fuel consumption.

But also there are practical issues with a canoe stern. In a practical sense, the pinchjed ends make it harder to carry a dinghy in davits or install the type of solar arrays that are becoming increasingly popular. The loss of volume aft, makes it more difficult to carry the weight of a full sized dinghy when davits are installed. The reduction in useful deck area and interior volume result in boats which are small for their length, and are the equivillent of perhaps a 15-20% smaller boat in terms of useful space and sailing ability.

At this point in time, I view the most recent crop of double enders mostly as a fashion statement. Most of us, sail the boats that we bought because we like them. We like them for all kinds of reasons, not the least of which may simply be that we like the way they look. I think that today’s double enders often carry with them a variety of features that attract a certain kind of sailor (or someone who wants to be that type of sailor).

But in the end, to me, in prioitizing the criteria for choosing a long range cruising boat, the most serious consideration needs to be the practical and functional aspects of the boat in question. Aesthetics may play a role, but if the plan is to go offshore for long periods of time, that role needs be secondary. And so from that point of view, I would consider a double end a liability rather than an asset.

Respectfully
Jeff
 
#36 ·
Nice post by Jeff_H. He danced on the edge of something that is important to recognize.

The reasons that these ships, and most European fishing boats until recently, be they Norwegian, Scottish, Danish, Dutch, Spanish, Maltese or Greek, are double enders are twofold; One is that this type of stern is easy, reliable, and nearly as cheap to build in wood.
Think about what it would take to build various kinds of shapes in wood when fasteners are wooden pegs and bending the planks is done with draft animals. Metal fasteners and steam boxes provided a lot of additional flexibility. Metal castings were another big help. Fiberglass was a boon to creativity, just as the ready availability of stainless steel for major components like keel bolts.

We saw similar advances over time in large commercial and military shipping with the advent of metal rolling, welding, and automated welding.

Add to these factors the reality that run of the mill naval architects (like me) tend to be very conservative and slow to accept change. People like Bob Perry who is now associated with "tradition" were in fact creative risk-takers. The market for ships and to some extent boats also tends to be conservative and change is relatively slow to be taken up. Just look at how many people continue to espouse the benefits of full keels when in fact they exist because that was about all that could be built for a very long time.

Other technology advanced in parallel, particularly in the last 50 years. Computers made a big difference. Heck as recently as the late 80s the very first deterministic damage stability analysis of an aircraft carrier was done by ... well ... me. Suddenly we had tools to model performance on paper where it is cheap. Model still had, and has, its place but scaling is much more challenging than most people realize.

Properly designed in the fine-ended model, they offer a lower resistance at slow speeds, less wave making and a cleaner wake less likely to cause waves to break astern.
True as far as it goes. It must be remembered that we are looking at a three-dimensional object with six degrees of freedom that operates over the boundary between a compressible and incompressible fluid with a boundary surface that can only be modeled stochastically. Forgive me for all the vocabulary - my point is that this is very complicated stuff and intuition can suck you into design mistakes very quickly.

{in part}
Pros
• Heavy weight equates to MOMENTUM - good when bashing headlong into large waves.

Cons
• Due to large mass/weight, they do not accelerate well out a tack, especially in heavy seas - at least the ones with large powerful bow angles (less bow 'sharpness').
Choice of ketch, cutter, or sloop rig is not relevant to a discussion of general hull form, nor is the degree of rig control.

I strongly disagree with your observation about momentum. First weight is not necessarily correlated to relatively minor hull form characteristics like stern shape. Second one must consider the hull form as a three-dimensional entity. Power craft are difficult enough. Sailboats simply must be considered as a whole. You won't get much value from just looking at waterlines. We draw waterlines, sections, buttocks, and diagonals iteratively because of the dynamics and interrelationships (absent a nice solid modeling tool).

The Tayana 37 for example is one of the most frustrating boats I have sailed offshore. Sure they power through the first few waves but each takes some speed off and before you know it you're creeping along because the boat simply doesn't have time to accelerate before another wave catches it and slows it down. The energy the hull extracts from the waves is more than the energy the sails can pull from the wind in heavy seas until equilibrium is reached at a pretty low boat speed.

The intuitive advantage of a double-ender or CCA era full keel boat is its diminished exposure of surface area to a following sea.
Again intuition is a trap. By the time you are in truly heavy seas stern shape doesn't make much difference. If anything, the broader sectioned sterns are lifted by the leading slope of the wave while the rounded sections simply have to absorb the impact. 10' seas aren't going to "slip under the stern."

Somewhere in this thread was a comment to the effect that no one would beat into the trades. I must be no one then, and I know I'm not alone. The world has truly changed. Certainly there are still a lot of people who follow the milk run. Improved performance to windward has greatly expanded the routing flexibility of cruisers. There was a time that windward performance drove decisions to take one route or the other in places like the South Pacific. Some people circumnavigated a second time simply to pick up the places they missed the first time. In more modern craft people run back and forth across the South Pacific in all kinds of directions that only the stoutest of will would once of taken. Similarly, the classic West to East route across the Atlantic went pretty far North and early season storms caused damage to boats and morale. Today cruisers in a range of production boats follow the Great Circle between Bermuda and the Azores - closer wind angles at good boat speed and reliable fuel efficient engines provide flexibility that wasn't practical before.

Especially in the tropics and even temperate summers a close reach often has advantages over a broad reach or a run. Wind over the deck is a good thing. Beating too much work? Crack off a little, build boat speed, and tack next Tuesday. I love flying spinnakers so there is always a soft spot for sailing downwind. If I were to plan an Atlantic circle I'll be looking for wind before the beam.
 
#9 · (Edited)
First off probably more circumnavigations have been made in "double enders" than any other hull form. The Valiant-40 followed by the Tayana-37 and 'their cousins' are still the all time leaders in this respect.

Pros.
• Because of the symmetrical hull form you can heel a canoe stern over onto its beam ends and have very little change in helm pressure - (good for less strain and wear & tear on the autohelm or wind vane steering.)
• Most of the modern double enders (Perry, Harris et al designs) have quite adequate reserve buoyancy in the stern.
• That pinched stern, mostly a stylistic form addition, cant be loaded with lots of extra weight.
• Since most Double enders are cutter rigged you can meet and match wind and seastate conditions more easily than a sloop.
• Since the masts on cutter rigged boats are located more closer to 40-50% LOA they can easily be sailed with 'just' a large genoa instead of reefing the main, and still 'point' reasonably well ... a good way to go tacking down wind, especially with the staysail on a clubfoot pulled out to the weather side. Cutters excel at beam reaching and broad reaching. Sloops are for 'pointing'; who the hell in their right mind intentionally goes 'pointing' in the tradewinds????
• Cockpits are quite small ... the small volume wont take on a lot of water weight and then plunge/squat and then struggle to recover from a boarding wave from astern.
• Usually quite deep in the water hull forms ... they dont POUND, thus are more 'sea-kindly'.
• VERY well behaved boats in F8 and above wind/wave conditions.
• Immersion factor (how deep these boat sinks into the water when heavily loaded with stores, is surprisingly good) - 1200 to 1400 lb./inch of immersion.
• Usually have immense stowage capacity already inbuilt.
• Heavy weight equates to MOMENTUM - good when bashing headlong into large waves.

Cons
• Cant be easily docked stern-to nor with use of passerel type stern boarding ramps -- as is customarily done in the Med on seawalls, etc.
•*Cockpits are small, ... makes for poor dockside entertainment centers.
• Such boats can be extremely heavy weight; but, built to adequate scantlings and safety factors of a true 'blue water' design ... but were designed in an age when composite construction was not optimized, thus 'heavier' than 'modern'.
• Usually quite deep in the water hull forms ... slow boats if sail plan not trimmed and tweaked to absolute perfection.
• Cutter rigs sail plans are very difficult to optimize, tweak, etc.; the transition from sloop to cutter rig has a very high learning curve. Complexity of rig and sail plan is not 'easy' to learn, nor tweak/adjust for optimum performance output (virtually nothing is written on this subject, either)
• Headsail/Staysail combo is a nightmare in varying wind strengths .... the interplay of headstay/forestay loading and the variable headstay/forestay wire stretch + sagging caused by different windstrengths ... is enough to make a grown man cry - requires more than backstay tension to 'tweak' for optimum performance output - complexity is incredible: backstay + running backstay (or intermediate shrouds) + independent forestay!!! tensions all need constant adjustment; with a sloop its usually 'just' simple backstay tension.
• Below ~6-7 kts. a staysail flown under a topsail is detractive aerodynamically when on a close reach or above - IMO.
• You reef 'back to front' on a cutter rig, because the combined CE is usually in the staysail - not really a con, unless you dont know this.
• Usually low internal volume and narrow beam in comparison to more modern designs ... not good for 'entertaining' (but a real plus in a heavy seaway as grab-holds are ALWAYS close at hand.)
• Folks who are terrorized of heeling probably should not own one. (My Ty37 'absolutely loves' 25-30° over .... but, Im a scow sailor where 25° of heel is 'the starting point')
• Due to large mass/weight, they do not accelerate well out a tack, especially in heavy seas - at least the ones with large powerful bow angles (less bow 'sharpness').
• Massive heavy masts make them 'slow rollers' - generally are 'top heavy'. (Id love to put a Carbon stick on mine; but, I really like a slow rolling boat as I dont like power-puking into bilges looking for my loosened dental fillings ... ;-). )

These boats are generally 'sea-kindly'; no use being 'beat up' on a long passage and then have to rest-up for several day because of the 'beating and pounding you took' to get there 10% 'faster', especially when long distance cruising is mostly spent at anchor.

Rx: That 'bustle' on a double ender is usually nothing but 'style' and that 'stern protrusion' really neither adds nor detracts from performance as its usually never IN the water (unless youre sailing stern-to all the time). If you realistically consider that most 'pinched stern' protuberances are just 'stylistic' then that extra 2 ft. should be deducted from your imaginary LOA when comparing to other designs ..... but what the hell, my double ended Perryboat is vastly 'prettier' and more 'eye pleasing' as well as 'more mannerly' than your average light-weight fat-assed sterned vomit comet.

;-)

Just imagine a Valiant or Passport 40 built with a cored hull and a Carbon Fiber mast and built to modern lightweight optimized composite structure ..... would absolutely ROAR. OK, that pinched stern ... make it 'flippable' so you can open it and use it as a 'garage' for your dink.
 
#10 ·
Just a quick thought on some double-ender cockpits. On your boat, you'll spend most of your time in the cockpit, especially in warm climates. A small cockpit will be uncomfortable and crowded when entertaining guests. Some of those double-enders like the Westsail 32 have tiny cockpits and no comfortable back rests when you're sitting in the cockpit. I'd opt for a big cockpit with comfortable seating (long enough to sleep on), a good-sized table for dining (4 to 6 people) and high backrests for sitting comfortably and then work on modifying it to drain quickly if flooded. One can always add more or enlarge existing drains or improve the companionway to prevent downflooding, but there is not much you can do with a small uncomfortable cockpit (besides change boats!). Just my 2 centavos..
 
#11 ·
My biggest complaint about some double enders is their proclivity to hobby horse. I first noticed this when a friend purchased a 1930's Atkins Ingrid, a boat I'd always admired for her lovely lines. Not being a sailor at all, he asked me to teach him about the strings and things and some basic sailing stuff.
As we got the sails up in Mamala Bay, we sheeted in and set off for Diamond Head. Sitting at the helm, I could not believe how uncomfortable the motion in the cockpit was. We eased the sheets and she settled down some, but there was still considerably more motion than I was used to on my transom boat (a 1909 Wm. Hand, gaff ketch).
Over the years, in many anchorages throughout the would, I have noticed double enders hobby horsing at anchor. Some more than others, to be sure, but all, more than a wide stern, transom boat. Therefor, I would have to question the comfort, as a liveaboard boat, of some double enders versus a transom boat.
Of course, some boats with transoms and long overhangs or that are fine in the stern underwater, will hobby horse as well, so it's not quite as cut and dry as double enders versus transom boats in the hobby horsing department.
There are a lot of things to consider if one is seeking a good cruising boat that is also a good liveaboard. I know quite a few people with great looking sail boats, that sail well, but are generally less comfortable liveaboards than the boat would seem, just by looking a it.
 
#13 ·
My boat a Westsail 28 actually has a rather large cockpit , with a small foot well . The W32's have less seating in the cockpit because the boomkin is mounted in the cockpit as opposed to outside on the hull, also the the lazarette is raised 3" from seat level . But really if your looking for a off shore cruiser I wouldn't think your priorities wouldn't be entertainment space . So Sam what boats catch your eye ?
 
#15 · (Edited)
Hi Mr. Bana, I know your not knocking Westies and good point about being on the hook with friends . But really I don't see the back support problem, we use those folding type chairs with the back rest .True there is no combing (I have seen some where they made them out of teak ) talk about cutting down the seating . I probably sound like a Westsail salesman , truth is these boats are only for a few . However they are a well kept secret as far as price . Look at the 32's the most expensive is only $59,500 . WESTSAIL - CRUISING BOATS FOR SALE
 
#16 ·
Y'all may have missed or overlooked the OP's first sentence.

"I have started the long process of buying my first sailboat. "

This would, imho create a large ? mark about where and how the OP will sail, and amount of experience he/she may have.

Aesthetics and function would be the best reasons to chose such boats for the new to sailing type. Few, if any of us are ever going to "test" such boats in the kind of conditions that separate the pinch from the squared. (OK here's your cue single hand circumnavigators to tell your tales!)

Personally, I like a "wine glass" stern on a boat. typically seen in smaller boats. I've seen a few large boats with transoms that look almost like that. but really not. Also the Wine glass shape can be narrowed to look more like a champagne or tulip glass.. (don't get me started on my love of boats!)

Image


Image


No, that's not me in my younger days LOL sitting on the "sugar scoop" which seems to be the choice of many newer designs.
Image
 
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#17 ·
I am fond of Double enders. I have to say my favourite is really about 3different boats... but all the same boat. The Morris Frances 26. Also known as the Victoria Frances and the Victoria 800.. depending cabin design. They came as a cramped flush deck, a boxy trunk cabin, and a full length Cabin. They were also one of the most seaworthy boats for 26 feet with the majority of her weight (51%) in the keel as ballest. They might get pooped easier due to their diminutive size, but they are hard to knock over and come up quickly if they do.

A veteran of the Circumnavigation fleet
 
#20 ·
My boat comes in two versions. Aft cockpit (what I have) and Aft Cabin. Mine has a nice rounded stern and a large cockpit. If I had the right setup, I could lay down in the cockpit with room to spare (I'm 6'5"). I've seen one Aft Cabin version and it is smaller so I wouldn't be able to lay down comfortably in the cockpit. It's got a good shape to it. I do have aft storage that has some good space, at least big enough I could fit down into it as I have a few times for doing some work. It works for my needs. Can't comment on how it handles in large seas but other owners have crossed oceans frequently on this type of boat and feel completely safe.

I love my little Nor'sea 27. :)
 
#21 ·
Jeff, let me just say thank-you for the brief but detailed history overview of the stern designs. It was very informative and a well worth read. I do have many factors to consider in my search to get it right. Cosmetic appearance is not that high on the list. Safety, stability are the first two. Once again, thanks - sam
 
#22 ·
Thanks for the post. Beautiful picture! Right now I'm still doing research on what I like
Within a hundred miles of me there is a reasonably priced 1981 Hunter Cherubini. I have also looked at Hans Christian, Westsail 32
Pacific Seacraft Mariah 31. to name a few. The only ones that do not appeal to me are the ones with a pilot house, I prefer open cockpit. Once again, Thank-You!
 
#27 ·
Maybe it is just me.. but I consider Canoe Sterns as being different from Double Enders.

IMHO a Double Ender needs to have an outboard rudder like a Westsail32, Ingrid, or a Frances 26.. and a Canoe stern is like a Herreshoff Rozinante with it's shorter keel length and under-slung rudder.

I do not have much experience with Canoe sterns other than to note they are not really all that different in behavior than an older Full keeled CCA cruiser like my own Sea Sprite 23. They just have even more hull overhanging the water doing nothing.

Double Enders in the Archer/Atkins vein tend to have a long full keel and a waterline length not much shorter than their deck length. these are generally very seaworthy boats and the stern tends to act much like a rear facing bow when in a following sea
 
#29 ·
The intuitive advantage of a double-ender or CCA era full keel boat is its diminished exposure of surface area to a following sea. Having breaking waves slip under the stern with minimal offset to COG seems to be a big advantage. The most challenging and tedious (to the helmsman) attitude of a sailboat IMO is in a heavy following sea. I would like to see actual comparison data in a following sea between a modern, wide, fin-keeled boat and a traditional deep keeled, narrow transom, overhung design.

I really like the way waves slip under the stern of my old 60s design boat but have no experience on modern sailboats in the same situations. I have had powerboats with wide transoms that really got knocked around uncomfortably in a following sea if that's any indicator.
 
#31 ·
The intuitive advantage of a double-ender or CCA era full keel boat is its diminished exposure of surface area to a following sea. Having breaking waves slip under the stern with minimal offset to COG seems to be a big advantage. The most challenging and tedious (to the helmsman) attitude of a sailboat IMO is in a heavy following sea. I would like to see actual comparison data in a following sea between a modern, wide, fin-keeled boat and a traditional deep keeled, narrow transom, overhung design.

I really like the way waves slip under the stern of my old 60s design boat but have no experience on modern sailboats in the same situations. I have had powerboats with wide transoms that really got knocked around uncomfortably in a following sea if that's any indicator.
that has been my experience too with a couple of cca era boats...

I like the motion in following waves, however they do exhibit some cases of extreme hobbyhorsing in certain conditions too...

Ive always said that the skipper should always adjust to the design of the boat and sail the boat accordingly and where it shines

it would be foolish to sail a flat sterned boat the same way as a very small waterline with huge overhangs boat, or a sugar scoop versus a double ender etc...

x2 on the canoe stern and double ender differntiation mentioned a couple of posts back

they are not the same and too many confuse them...:)
 
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#30 ·
Next to the female form, canoes, double enders are the most appealing shape I know of.

I have a "collection" of canoes. A wide variety for a variety of uses. Amazing craft! Capable, efficient, comfortable...

I am almost finished building a scale model of our Islander-28. One of Bob Perry's favorite designs. He has described it as a double ender. I consider it one, too.

For me (and apparently, Bob) the double ender is defined at the waterline. Tundra Down's ends both come together at the waterline. Seems correct to me. That is where the boat is being a boat. The rest of the "platform" isn't about the hull's shape. By "hull" I am referring to the part of the boat that interacts directly with the water.
 

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#32 ·
The comment re the islander 28 as being a double ender. MANY IOR boats of the 70's in reality are double enders. While they have a transom per say, the flat part is a foot or so above the WL, and if you look at JUST the WL, you will see a double ender with the upper part of the rudder being out of the water.

Myself, while some double/canoe sterns are pretty, I prefer the look of the newer designs that are generally speaking, can be a bit faster due to planing ability down wind etc. BUT, ANY properly built boat can and should survive the end intended useage if the person is up to it.

One thing not mentioned by the OP. ARE you sailing around the world? or are you sailing say puget sound/san juans up to the mid BC area east of Vancouver island, or some other what I would call reasonably protected area. A puget sound boat would be different than a world cruiser boat in how you want it designed. Here the BIG cockpit to entertain in, sit in etc would be better than a smaller cockpit boat. Even here, many like pilot house boats so they can sail in the drizzly winter months in the dry.

I guess what I am saying, there is NOT a perfect boat per say. BUT, many perfect boats depending upon the how you use your boat. A westsail for weeknight racing, weekend cruising, needing to be somewhat speedy as you only have soo much time, does not work as well for me as one of the newer designed style boat. This is not to say a westsail is an improper boat for someone in a different useage. The boat design useage should match your end use!

Marty
 
#35 ·
The comment re the islander 28 as being a double ender. MANY IOR boats of the 70's in reality are double enders. While they have a transom per say, the flat part is a foot or so above the WL, and if you look at JUST the WL, you will see a double ender with the upper part of the rudder being out of the water.

Myself, while some double/canoe sterns are pretty, I prefer the look of the newer designs that are generally speaking, can be a bit faster due to planing ability down wind etc. BUT, ANY properly built boat can and should survive the end intended useage if the person is up to it.

Marty
Agreed Marty,

If and when we go to a larger boat the newer designs will be our direction. The argument for performance, even for non racers, is hard to ignore.

Down
 
#37 · (Edited)
basically pick your poison...

I disagree and agree on many things said by those in the know here...in the end I always fall to the designers notes on said boat and then those with true experience on said boats versus whatever info you can get from "established sources"...

the reality is all boats dont do everything perfect...and excell in certain circumstances and fall flat in others

overall I would venture to guess that boat designs today perform better than older similar rivals...HOWEVER its not as extreme and fantastic and or great a difference as to render older designs bad or non offshore capable etc...

anywhoo

regarding waves, yes 10, 20, 30 foot waves can slip under you regardless of stern shape...its the ones that break that show you the difference between stern types and which shape is better, not to mention the speed they are travelling at and what your speed is.

just read a couple of moitessiers book(havent we all) on how to handle big waves from behind...his notes on this type of sailing are golden standards to this day.

anywhoo

last tidbit I had an old wooden h28 with a nice flat transom inwards like many old designs...with an outboard hung rudder of course and a really nice long full keel

I could most definetely fill the incredible lift and steadiness this type of transom offers in following seas...because its flat it offered a steady motion, slow lift...and not much wash, something which canoe sterns, some cca boats and some double enders dont have.

while wet to windward, on a beam or broad reach and even ddw it was a dream to sail..."on rails"
 
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