Arf,
I have the same furler and the same problem(s). To do, or not to do, that is the question. Also, can you do an end to end double braid splice? My eye splices ain't that good, what do you think my end to end will look like? Let's see what other responses you get.
Bp

 

You don't necessarily need to open up the furler.
After cutting and removing the old line, Just feed the taped or melted end of the new one into the groove while rotating the foil.

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to open it up to make sure all the fasteners are moving and to familiarize yourself with it though.

You will have to make a constant diameter end to end splice. New England Rope as well as many others have the instructions.

 

Of course! Pull the new line through with the old! Brilliant! And yet, for me, Duh. But you're right Knothead, I should look inside--this was a neglected boat when we got it recently, and the manual suggests there's some maintenance in there--mainly flushing and spraying WD40.

It looks like gaining access is just a matter of loosening the cover clamp on the bottom of the sheave cover and dropping the cover? The manual says to watch out not to lose the rope stripper. Should that be it then?

I know it needs a constant diameter splice, and Bp, nope, I don't know how. I went out and got the the Samson fid kit and armed with info from the web and my belief that I can do stuff, proceeded to have a hell of a time on a practice piece of 7/16" double braid. Could not work the fid up that far in the shell once it was past the crossover. My new plan might be to get a rigger to do the splice.

Tom

 

Of course! Pull the new line through with the old! Brilliant! And yet, for me, Duh. But you're right Knothead, I should look inside--this was a neglected boat when we got it recently, and the manual suggests there's some maintenance in there--mainly flushing and spraying WD40.

It looks like gaining access is just a matter of loosening the cover clamp on the bottom of the sheave cover and dropping the cover? The manual says to watch out not to lose the rope stripper. Should that be it then?

I know it needs a constant diameter splice, and Bp, nope, I don't know how. I went out and got the the Samson fid kit and armed with info from the web and my belief that I can do stuff, proceeded to have a hell of a time on a practice piece of 7/16" double braid. Could not work the fid up that far in the shell once it was past the crossover. My new plan might be to get a rigger to do the splice.

Tom

Tom, it is easy to lose screws and various parts when taking any furling system apart. The rope stripper is just sitting in there so when you separate the components it will fall. So be careful.

Go ahead and try the splice. In truth it's easier than a typical eye splice in that it's constant diameter. So you don't have to worry about milking the fat part of the splice into the cover. There shouldn't be a fat part in a constant diameter splice.
The reason I suggested the NER instructions is only because those are what I learned from. There is one main addendum that I made to their directions but it's a little difficult to explain until you start your splice.
Let me know if you decide to try it yourself.

 

I wouldn't mind hearing your addition to the NER instructions, Knot--that's what I was using when I failed my practice attempt. I used a piece of 1/2" db of unknown make, extracted the cores, had a difficult time of getting the cover into the fid, then just couldn't get the fid tip to the extraction point--way tight in there. Tried pulling the other core out more to make room, but no go.

I'd like to do it myself for the usual reasons, but also so I don't have to schedule someone 2 or 3 weeks out.

Tom

 

I wouldn't mind hearing your addition to the NER instructions, Knot--that's what I was using when I failed my practice attempt. I used a piece of 1/2" db of unknown make, extracted the cores, had a difficult time of getting the cover into the fid, then just couldn't get the fid tip to the extraction point--way tight in there. Tried pulling the other core out more to make room, but no go.

I'd like to do it myself for the usual reasons, but also so I don't have to schedule someone 2 or 3 weeks out.

Tom

Tom, what kind of line did you purchase? There should be as much material in the core as there is in the cover. Any typical Double braid should work. But there are some types of rope you might have trouble with.

What kind of Fid are you using and what diameter is it? I have made my own Fids but Sampson or NER both are pretty good.

When I attach the Fid to the line what I do is cut the end of the line at an angle about 1/2" to 3/4" long. Then I take a short piece of tape and wrap it tightly so as to make a point. I insert this into my Fid. It can be taped at this point so it doesn't pull out too easily.

I really don't know why you would be having so much trouble passing the Fid through the line.
Are you bunching the line up to increase the diameter when pushing the fid through. Try pulling out a whole bunch of the core. That will bunch it up for you.

As to my little addition to the splice instructions, it's a little difficult to understand until you get to the point of making the final marks on the cores and covers.
If you follow the instructions to the letter, then when you have milked everything back in you will most likely have little hollow spots where there is nothing inside the cover.
That won't really hurt the strength of the splice. It just makes it look crappy.
The key is to make the marks a little closer to the end of the parts you are going to cut off and taper. About a thumbs width.
Remember it's real important to milk everything back into shape before making these final marks.
The reason for the difference is that before cutting and tapering, the core and cover are overlapping at their original size and causing the diameter of the cover at that point to be greater. When you have made your tapers the overlapped area should be the same diameter as the rest of the rope and will have there for gotten longer. The marks you made when the line was shorter would be a little off.

I know that is confusing, Sorry.

 

Tom, I just thought of one more tip that might help you. I can't remember if it's in the instructions.
Be sure to stitch the crossover, which should be just the two covers, as soon as you have tightened it.
Then you can work with it without worrying about it getting loose.

Also, cross stitch the entire splice after completion for extra strength.

 

furler rollers

You spoke of tripping on the furling line or they were laying on your deck. Don't you have the dual rollers mounted on your stanchions to keep the line off your deck? If you do, check the rollers for wear when you replace the line. The rollers get scalloped.

If you give up on splicing, (I did) and have a line done professionally, then off course you need to get it over the forestay, which means disconnecting the furler completely, (removing the extrusion attachment parts to raise is above the turnbuckle). Oh and it's a good idea to use the jib halyard as a temporary forestay so the mast doesn't fall down.

It is definitely a two many job. The forestay with aluminum extension and furling gear is heavy. You'd have to be superman to hold up the forestaay and exttursion with one hand, disconnect the stay and loop the line around it with the other.

 

You spoke of tripping on the furling line or they were laying on your deck. Don't you have the dual rollers mounted on your stanchions to keep the line off your deck? If you do, check the rollers for wear when you replace the line. The rollers get scalloped.

If you give up on splicing, (I did) and have a line done professionally, then off course you need to get it over the forestay, which means disconnecting the furler completely, (removing the extrusion attachment parts to raise is above the turnbuckle). Oh and it's a good idea to use the jib halyard as a temporary forestay so the mast doesn't fall down.

It is definitely a two many job. The forestay with aluminum extension and furling gear is heavy. You'd have to be superman to hold up the forestaay and exttursion with one hand, disconnect the stay and loop the line around it with the other.

If Tom does decide to have a rigger splice the line I would recommend that he have the rigger come to the boat and do it in place if that is at all possible.
The length of the line can be important. If you are sailing alone you want to be able to handle it from the helm and not have a big mess in the cockpit.

Tom,
I have the same boat as you and the same furling system. I am a relatively new owner of this boat - I bought it last summer. Last weekend I needed to replace 2 stanchions that were cracked. To do that I had to de-splice (not correct term I'm sure) or remove the splice to feed the line through the stanchions. I ended up removing the line completely including removing it from the furler. What I did may answer a couple of your questions.

Threading the line back through the furler was very easy. There is no need to take it apart, just feed it through and rotate the drum. If you want to take the drum apart for inspection, that is another matter. It isn't necessary however for simply rethreading.
Re-splicing (my version of re-splicing) was easy as well. I'm sure this is not the correct way to do it and not very seaman like but if you are looking for an inexpensive and practical way to do this, this might serve you. As I took apart the original splice (presumably either 20 years old or at sometime changed by the previous owner), I noticed that it was simply a double braid line with the core of one end inside the jacket of another in about a 6 inch overlap. The whole splice (through jacket and core) was stiched together to hold it fast. When I put the splice back together I simply inserted the core of one end back into the jacket of the other and stiched it back up. It seems to be holding fine. Again to be clear, I know this probably isn't the best way to splice a continuous furling line but since the forces on this line aren't too great, it may get you out of a pinch if you have the same type of line.

JSL3, not to argue with you, but sometimes the forces on the furling line are considerable.
If you never use your system to reef or try to furl the sail when it's full, then I suppose you can avoid putting much strain on it. But if you want to roll the sail up part way and keep sailing, there will be a lot of strain on the line.
The last thing you would want is to have the splice come apart when you are trying to furl the sail in tight quarters or when the wind pipes up.

 

Tom,
I have the same boat as you and the same furling system. I am a relatively new owner of this boat - I bought it last summer. Last weekend I needed to replace 2 stanchions that were cracked. To do that I had to de-splice (not correct term I'm sure) or remove the splice to feed the line through the stanchions. I ended up removing the line completely including removing it from the furler. What I did may answer a couple of your questions.

Threading the line back through the furler was very easy. There is no need to take it apart, just feed it through and rotate the drum. If you want to take the drum apart for inspection, that is another matter. It isn't necessary however for simply rethreading.
Re-splicing (my version of re-splicing) was easy as well. I'm sure this is not the correct way to do it and not very seaman like but if you are looking for an inexpensive and practical way to do this, this might serve you. As I took apart the original splice (presumably either 20 years old or at sometime changed by the previous owner), I noticed that it was simply a double braid line with the core of one end inside the jacket of another in about a 6 inch overlap. The whole splice (through jacket and core) was stiched together to hold it fast. When I put the splice back together I simply inserted the core of one end back into the jacket of the other and stiched it back up. It seems to be holding fine. Again to be clear, I know this probably isn't the best way to splice a continuous furling line but since the forces on this line aren't too great, it may get you out of a pinch if you have the same type of line.

 

Knot,
No argument here. What you say makes perfect sense. It could be quite a handful to have the line part in high winds. On this boat, I have experienced 25kt winds with the jib furled part way and noticed no problems with the splice but I will continue to watch out for it. When sailing partially furled, I suppose it also makes a difference if the splice is on the load side or the slack side of the drum. Right?
Thanks for the advice.

 

Arf,
I ran into the problem of the fig not wanting to pass up the cover. I managed to get that part done by first pulling as much core down, loosening the cover some and then rather than going the whole distance up the cover at one time, I went up maybe half the distance and then came out of the cover, pulled the fid and core until the slack was out then went back in the exact space that the fig came out of and went the rest of the way. I think the NER instructions cover that somewhere.
Let us know how you make out.
Knot,
Thanks for your tip on splicing. I had trouble because I usually ended up having too much cover around the eye when I was done. I will try your suggestion next time.
BP

 

Whoa came back from working on another little surprise package project on the boat (compass cylinder) to see all this activity on the furler. Great!

Answering PapaSailor first: The double blocks are shackled to bails at the bottom of the stanchions and lay on the deck and pull inward--nothing wrong with them, just a crappy setup. If I have a rigger do the job, he (or she) will be coming to the boat with the cut line already in place, so no issues with forestay.

Tom

 

Knot:

Thanks for continuing my education--I sort of got what you were splaining to me. I need to try another to apply it--appreciate the tip on stitching the crossover.

Maybe my practice piece is the wrong type--I'll try to attach a picture of it with the white core out below--it's 1/2" and I'm using the Samson 1/2" fid. My 1st prob was getting the shell in the fid well, so it came out in the middle of the job--didn't think of tapering it to help jamb it into the end of the fid. But I did try bunching up the other shell toward the fid as I tried to work the fid in on top of the other core but it was ridiculously tight.

What type of line do you recommend I use for the real project? The Hood doc recommends 7/16" Yale ULS. I take it this is an ultra low stretch line, so should I use maybe Sta-set? What kind of probs can I expect with that?

Thanks again.

Tom

 

Tom, when you say you are using a Sampson 1/2" Fid, you don't mean that it's 1/2" diameter do you?
If it is you need to use a smaller Fid.
The line in the photo looks like it should work fine.
Yale ULS was (or is) just a normal double braid but the last time I used it, (years ago), the cover was so loose that the core wanted to pop out around the eye doing a normal eye splice. I always had to stitch around the damn eye to keep it together.
But it was very easy to splice. I think that may be why Hood was recommending it.

 

The fid marked 1/2" is 13/32" in diameter. Should I go smaller for that size line? They also have a 7/16" fid that is 6/16" and a 3/8" fid that is 5/16"

'll be going to West Marine for my furling line--should I just get normal db? Is that what you would normally use for a furling line in general? I would have figured a little give in a furling line would be a good thing--a little shock absorption.

Tom

 

Tom, try using the Fid for 7/16". With your 1/2" line and use a 3/8" Fid for the 7/16". Remember to use the proper measurements for the line size.

When you go down to WM, pick up one of NER Fids. Those have a hook thing on the end that will almost certainly keep the line from coming off the Fid.

Just buy their normal Sta-Set or even the econo-braid (all white/no tracer).

 

Knothead and BP, I finished my trial run and the results were a bit rugged.

1. My crossover had a gap of 1/2" or so--but then I didn't stitch my test one.

2. Worst thing, ended up with a twist. I'm not sure how that happened.

3. Don't quite understand the tapering step. Once I've threaded the two covers into the other side, I've got a lot of core remaining out of each and less cover remaining out. I'm supposed to go about a rope diam out from the point where cores and covers come out and cut half the strands? Then milk it all in, jerk it between the crossover and the knot, and finally cut all the remainder? I guess that allowed the strands I cut to recede back into the cover?

Tom

 

Knothead and BP, I finished my trial run and the results were a bit rugged.

1. My crossover had a gap of 1/2" or so--but then I didn't stitch my test one.

2. Worst thing, ended up with a twist. I'm not sure how that happened.

3. Don't quite understand the tapering step. Once I've threaded the two covers into the other side, I've got a lot of core remaining out of each and less cover remaining out. I'm supposed to go about a rope diam out from the point where cores and covers come out and cut half the strands? Then milk it all in, jerk it between the crossover and the knot, and finally cut all the remainder? I guess that allowed the strands I cut to recede back into the cover?

Tom

Tom, What is your deadline on completing this project?
I was thinking that it might be fun to make a little video performing the splice and if you have got a few days, I will try to make it next week.
I think you might be surprised at how easy the end to end splice actually is when you see it done.
The problem is that it's a lot easier to show someone than to explain it.
At least for me.

 

If you're willing to make a video, Knothead, I'm willing to wait for it We are talking constant diameter end to end, right?

Certainly I've got next week--now that you've got me thinking I can do it myself, I wouldn't be able work on it until after next weekend anyway.

Have at it, and I look forward to seeing it done right.

Tom

 

We are talking constant diameter end to end, right? Tom

Correct, constant diameter.
Wish me luck, it will be a lot more difficult to figure out how to post it than it will be to make it. I just recently learned how to post photos but still haven't figured out how resize them.

 

Arf, I hope this works. I had a heck of a time learning how to upload it. Had to join U tube.
Here is a part 1. I hope it's helpful.
Part two is still uploading.

Steve

 

Part two....

 

Nice job, Knothead! I think I can actually give it a decent shot now.

One (nearly) last question: I'm doing this in place on the boat with the line through the furler and blocks. Anything I should do in that case to avoid getting a twist in it?

Thanks for going above and beyond.

Tom

 

Look at the color flecks in the line, you can see it if you have a lot of twist.
If it's solid white or a solid colored line it is still possible to see the twist, just a little harder.
After you run it through the furler and the lead blocks, just take a couple moments to untwist it.

 

Knothead, I'm doing another test in my test line. Definitely my crossover looks much better now. I've stitched it and I'm at the point where I've milked everything back prior to marking for tapering. But a question (of course!): at this point in the fid's worth between where a core comes out and a cover comes out, it's thicker than normal diameter and tight, and no amount of pulling will make any more core go in, yet I've got maybe 3 fid's worth of core out at this point. Is that normal? If this is a prob, could it be because I'm working with a pretty short piece and didn't have anywhere near 5 fid's from the last mark to the slip knot?

Tom

 

Yes, that sounds perfectly normal. Once you have cut and tapered, the diameter in that area will be smaller. That's what the tapering accomplishes.
You do end up cutting off and throwing away quite a bit of the core. Don't let that throw you off.
And yes, it helps to have plenty of distance from the ends to the stopper knot. In the video I think I said 6 to 8 feet. You should probably have at least 8 feet maybe a little more.
Keep in mind that some rope has a tighter cover than others. Sometimes the same type will vary spool to spool. You may have just picked one that is more difficult.

Hang in there.

Steve

 

Excellent. Don't worry, I'm definitely doing this on my furler next week.

But damn it, one more Q: what's the rule of thumb for figuring how much line length you lose in the process?

Tom

 

Depends on the rope and the type of splice you're doing, as well as your skill at splicing. A good estimate for double braids and cored lines is about 1.5-2' per splice plus the eye splice diameter in the case of a bigger eyesplice. .

 

SD, Arf145 is doing an end to end constant diameter splice for his Hood 810.
Lets see,....The first mark is two fid lengths from the end and that is the location of the crossover, so if I am thinking about this correctly you would lose approximately 4 fid lengths of line. I would figure 5 just to be safe.

I usually figure 2' for an becket splice.

 

Knot Head,
I was away for a few days and returned to see your video posted. That's great! I will be doing a practice line soon. You are up there with Gui in my book, just without the photoshop! I don't know if you would be up for it, but many of us could learn a lot from an eyesplice video. But even without that, I for one really appreciate the work you did. Thanks.
BP

 

Bruce and Arf, Thanks. It was kinda fun.
The quality of the video seemed to have suffered somewhere along the line. It looked a lot clearer before I uploaded it to U-Tube.
I am not too adept at the computer stuff. (Ask SD)
I would be happy to make a little eye splice video. It'll be a lot shorter.

Steve

 

knot:

I second BPs request for an eye splice video.

I've completed my test line and my results are remarkably, er, decent. I did introduce a slight twist (maybe 1/8th), which is mainly noticeable because I'm dealing with just a few feet of line, but I think I can avoid that next time.

Next stop, the real thing. I'll figure 5 fids loss.

Thanks again--the video was a huge help.

Tom

 

Great, I'm glad it helped.

Steve

 

You make it look so easy...

Knothead,
Your video makes it look like a 15 minute job. I have been messing (the nicer term) with this for 2 hours and I haven't gotten the first cover inserted. I am using Samson fids 5/16" dia. on 5/16" line. After removing the core from the first section of cover, I can't even put the fid through the empty cover, not to mention getting past the crossover. I went down to a 1/4 " dia. fid and I can barely fit that through once I get past the crossover. I am pulling on the core to bunch up the cover. This is off the shelf West Marine double braided line.
I had similar problems doing Eye Splices but I managed to get them done by going up the core 1/3 of the way and then coming out of the cover and then reinserting the fid into the exit hole, going up 1/3 more , etc.
What in the world am I doing wrong?
First,what brand fids are you using? Second, are you using a lubricant on the fid?
I'll check back later, I need to go sailing.
Thanks KH.
BP

 

Knothead,
Your video makes it look like a 15 minute job. I have been messing (the nicer term) with this for 2 hours and I haven't gotten the first cover inserted. I am using Samson fids 5/16" dia. on 5/16" line. After removing the core from the first section of cover, I can't even put the fid through the empty cover, not to mention getting past the crossover. I went down to a 1/4 " dia. fid and I can barely fit that through once I get past the crossover. I am pulling on the core to bunch up the cover. This is off the shelf West Marine double braided line.
I had similar problems doing Eye Splices but I managed to get them done by going up the core 1/3 of the way and then coming out of the cover and then reinserting the fid into the exit hole, going up 1/3 more , etc.
What in the world am I doing wrong?
First,what brand fids are you using? Second, are you using a lubricant on the fid?
I'll check back later, I need to go sailing.
Thanks KH.
BP

BP,
I'm sorry you are having a difficult time of it.
I would try to use the smallest fid that I could still attach the cover to.
I made my own fids, but the only major difference between mine and Sampson's is that I tapped the open end so that I can screw it on to the taped end of the line. I sometimes have to do a lot of splices and that turned out to be a time saver.
I don't use a lube although I have used a little baby power when doing splices in Sta-Set X. You might try that. Oh, and buff the fid on a wheel to a high polish it if it has been on the boat for awhile.
I would think that with a 1/4" fid you wouldn't have any trouble passing it through.

You say the line is West Marine Double braid. Thats Sta-Set, right?
Maybe you could post a photo or two of the attachment to the fid and the point of the splice where you are having problems.
Hang in there. After you have done it a couple of times I promise it will get easier.

Steve

 

Thanks....

KnotH,
Thanks for the encouragment. I was frustrated to the max yesterday. Cured somewhat by an evening sail.
I have a buffer and will polish my fids and try the baby powder. If I still am having problems I will post some photos.
meantime i think I will go for another sail. too nice a day.
Thanks again,
BP
ps
Polishing my fid...that doesn't sound quite right, does it? as in yeah, my wife caught me polishing my fid last night....