lake champlain

beautiful sail,the only shortcoming is you will run out of lake.
bonnelaine
lake ontario

 

Bonnelaine - Right now we're on Champlain, but the HR53 (or other boat) would be used for a trip up the St. Lawrence, around Nova Scotia, down the east coast of the US and then somewhere, and then to Panama and beyond. Right now we're talking about 1.5-2 years, but the possibility for longer exists

 

My 2 cents: Depends on the boat and what type of sailing you do. You could argue that a shoal draft will have more inside ballast, but really in the conditions that your keel would come off, will normally cause you to turtle anyway. I think you could argue, and I am sure it has here, all day with tons of data and it still comes down to boat design and type of sailing and personal preference.

As far as safety, know your boat, know and define your and your crews abilities and always have a plan B.

P.S. I would take my family to sea in a seaworthy HR or Caliber anytime, but then again...I like HR and Caliber

 

god bless you and good luck .
if it was me i would look into min depths for the icw as it would be nice and good sense to have the option .good luck to you

 

Labatt,

The shoal draft version normally should have the same righting moment -- usually achieved by adding additional ballast. So I would not worry about the question of righting moment vis a vis safety. And on all but the hard legs to windward, you probably would not even notice any performance difference between the standard (deep) and shoal draft variants in a boat of this size. You might even see an advantage in the shoal downwind (a friend with a shoal J42 claims his boat is faster off the wind than the standard draft versions). A lot of open ocean sailing is with the trades, so you could conceivably make faster passages with the shoal variant. But all-in-all, I'd call it a wash with perhaps a slight edge to the standard draft.

I agree, it is hard to find a boat in this size range that is REALLY shoal draft and still has good windward performance. The exception is those fitted with centerboards or full keels, which you seem to be steering clear of. So generally you are choosing between 6.5' and 7.5-8.5'. In your place, I would try to keep it under 7' if possible. But if you end up with a deeper draft boat, you'll just have to accept some modest limitations on where you can go -- there's plenty of deep water on this blue planet. Also consider re-sale -- you might want ot finish that trip on the US West coast where shallow draft is much less of an issue, or back in the Med/Scandinavia.

 

Face it Chris, you're smitten. You want the HR, so just go ahead and get it, then get to the other side of the US as quick as you can

 

John - It's killing me! I'm actually not completely smitten... a little bit of my logical side is peeking through, mostly when I'm talking to the loan broker.

 

I own a FIRST 42 with a tall rig and a deep fin keel, (about 8 feet) and I find you really have to watch your water. At the present, we're up in the California Delta, about 60 miles from the pacific and we find we often have to detour a number of miles to sometimes get where we want to go.
As for the righting of the boat, I would'nt think there would be much difference as when the boat heels, the further over it goes, the more wind it takes to push it over due to the sails dumping the wind, so at 15 degrees of heel, it may take twice the wind to push it another 5 degrees. What you may find is the boat might be a little more tender in movement with a shoal keel.
What I've found, my boat becomes more stable as the boat speed increases.. This very well could be a result of the deep fin keel.

 

I'll continue to be the contrarian here Chris...I agree with John that there is NO safety issue with a shoal draft.
I would not buy a boat with a 7' draft for all the reasons discussed earlier + if you ever want to sell her...you will have a difficult time on the East coast.
That said...if you do it...you will still have a wonderful time and it is a wonderful boat.

 

Ditto for Gulf Coast.

 

Well, when you do buy the ship, come to Loch Ness.
We have 750 ft of water there, and plenty in the canal, so your deep fin (or shoal) will not run aground.
I'll charge my batteries so's I can run the fridge and give you a beer, or five.

 

You seem to understand the pluses and minuses already. I notice a large difference between sailing a 40-odd foot steel cutter and my 33 foot fin keeler that go beyond the fact that the boat that is one-third the displacement has about six inches more keel (grin). Working to windward is the prime difference...the cutter is more modest in this regard, and will make a bit more leeway. My helming has changed, as well, because I've got vastly more windage, but also a rudder the size of a dining room table.

The trade off is in "sea kindliness", something that can be mathematically determined, but really has to be experienced. The modified full keel is surprisingly tender when the boat is unballasted, but when properly on her lines, is very stable, even bashing into the wind. The "roll" is less snappy and the "rise" more gradual. I can tell, even in Lake Ontario, that it will be possible to sleep on passage. This would be very hard on the fast but "trembling" deep fin keel.

On the other hand, if I was doing coastal and didn't anticipate low water, the deeper, the better for performance.

 

Kind of funny... the ballast on the Hallberg-Rassy 53 we're looking at is within a couple of thousand pounds of my entire Passport 40!

 

Labatt,

It may sound preposterous, but it's not unheard of to swap keels. I don't know if it can be done on an HR53, but if this is your dream boat and you are struggling with the draft issue, it might be worth inquiring. Obviously there's expense, but you should be able to get a credit for the old keel (that's a heck of a chunk of lead). Also, I have heard of owners swapping keels. You might ask the factory if they know of a shoal boat that has asked about getting the standard keel....

 

I believe the shoal is only 6" less, so it's kind of a moot point. I considered hiring a naval architect to design a new keel for her, but I'm concerned about damaging the resale value significantly.

 

I'd suggest contacting HR directly and asking for stability plots and polar plots for the regular- and shallow-draft versions.

They provide the polar plot for the regular draft version on their website. The stability calculations are necessary for their CE approval, so they know these numbers.

Which ever version you pick, this data will also help answer questions when it comes time to sell the boat.

Cheers,

Tim

 

To get a warm fuzzy

To get a warm fuzzy on the boats you are looking at try using the "Angle of vanishing Stability Calculator In the US sailing Keelboat course http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__avs.htm

 

I believe the shoal is only 6" less, so it's kind of a moot point. I considered hiring a naval architect to design a new keel for her, but I'm concerned about damaging the resale value significantly.

Might affect resale, but then agaion it might make it easier to resell. The market for large boats is not the same as for the smaller ones. There aren't a lot of 50 footers out doing the PHRF one Tuesday nights. Buyers tend to evaluate each boat on its own merits.

If you decide to explore the Keel-swapping thing, there is a company called Mars http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/keelhome17.html that has a lot of experience in this area. They can probably provide you with some good input.

 

Mars are great. They make all sorts of international keels, and cast the keel for The Spirit of Canada, the Open 60 that's just left for trials in Brazil to qualify for the 2008 Vendee Globe. I've met the skipper several times now...he is a very focused individual.

 

OK, I am certainly not a naval architect, but I don't get it.

You are thinking of buying a new, or almost new, HR53, most likely closing in on a million dollars. And now, because you think you may want a shoal keel, but are not sure, people are suggesting that you switch out the keel???????
Come on guys, HR is one of the most respected BW boats made, their shoal keel, according to Labatt, is about 6" less than the deep draft. Are we all nuts, or what?

First, the cost of replacing the keel on this puppy will probably be somewhere between $50K and $100K MINIMUM. When you get done, you will have a one of a kind. In this case that is NOT a good thing. How many buyers do you think you will find down the road for this one off? HR builds it one way and because you are not sure you switch to your own design and a future buyer just decides you were right and not HR? A buyer in your price bracket does not come along every day. A buyer of an HR, that is no longer an HR, at that price range is a one in a million. I almost said a one in a million idiot, but I know this is tearing you up and you have not made the decision yet.....so forgive me. So, you invest $100K plus in the keel change out, and then the boat is worth what, $300-400K less than it should be because of the change?

Labatt, you are a lucky man. Probably worked your ass off for that luck, but you have a chance to live your dream. Decide WHERE you want to go and buy a boat to go THERE. Or, buy the BOAT you want and go where you
CAN and be happy with the boat. You will be making a compromise whatever.

In this size range and quality of boat, you should not worry if it is shoal or deep unless you are racing and worrying about that extra couple of degrees of pointing ability. However, I think that cruising is your dream and going to weather a few extra degrees is probably not an issue.

NOW, if you buy new, and HR says sure we can design this with a shorter shoal draft that will be just fine, then you have your boat, HR designed it that way, and you get what you want.

Now, if you really think about replacing a keel on one of these beauties, call a friend to hit you up side the head!

 

CB...you're right of course about the NE coast. But if you want to cruise the East Coast as Labatt does...then you need to be concerned about the whole coast...as does anyone who would buy the boat in the future. Not too many people buy 50'+ boats to stay put in their home cruising grounds unless it is a racing boat.

 

Shoal draft is usually refered to as 4 to 4.5 feet, calling 6.5 feet shoal draft is silly as hell.
I draw all of 20 inches board up and motor down, and I've run around or popped rudders twice this season - imagine what you are going to have to do with 6.5 feet of keel dragging around down the ICW?

Go catamaran and get over it

 

Buy it and move the West Coast around Seattle; cheaper than swapping out the keel, and much better sailing area. For free, I'll throw in the BC coast and Alaska coastal areas.

 

My "shoal" draft HR40 draws 11" less than the standard keel. I'd be surprised if the shoal draft HR53 doesn't provide a similar reduction.

Talk to HR -- if you really feel strongly about reducing draft, perhaps you can get a factory shoal keel and replace the one on the boat you are considering. Note that if the tank arrangement is anything like mine, you'll have to pull two or three tanks to reach the keel bolts. Readily done, but potentially messy.

I don't think I'd do it. If you like the boat then buy her. Put some of the modification money into a good set of davits and fast comfortable dink. You'll do fine in most of the cruising locations of the U.S. East Coast. The ICW is more limited by your mast height than draft. The difference between 7.5' and 6.5' in the Bahamas probably isn't significant -- you would still have to be very careful. Solution? Head down island sooner.

I don't think you'll regret owning an HR.

By the way, there is a very nice 48 for sale in Annapolis. I've sailed her, and sailed alongside her. She's great.

The biggest difference between deep and shoal drafts is how close to shore you are when you run aground. <grin>

 

There are plenty of boats with 5 foot drafts. I have gunk-holded in the calif delta with no problems. Get a full keel and your worries about sailing any points will disappear.

 

Deep Keel vs. Shallow Draft

You are looking at a great boat. I sail the great lakes and have been to New York and the East Coast in my Catalina 36 and I bought the boat to do the intracoastal, Keys, and great lakes. No question I needed the shoal draft. I see no difference in sailing which detracts from the pleasure. Look to where you wish to go. If staying east coast, Bahamas, and keys, consider the shoal draft. You will not be able to do the intracoastal but you have a bluewater craft so that is where you take her. Otherwise fair winds and great adventures