[Minnewaska]

Captains choice here. No right wrong, unless someone gets hurt, or you can’t use the boat again. One’s sail plan matters too. Our furling main will not go in, other than dead to wind, in 50 kt winds.

I think we’re talking about being caught off guard, with light cruising seas, not full on storm conditions. Reef early reef often is the obvious answer to all of us. If I didn’t, I would not change whether I was upwind or downwind, thereby exposing the beam. If I was already beating, I’d pinch up, furl the headsail and see if I needed to hold head to wind, with the engine, to get the main in. If I was running, my preference would be for little to no main and just the foresail, but I would not be able to furl the main, so the headsail would come in and I try to hold 150 ish. Did I have a preventer already? I ain’t going out there now!

We should never get caught unreefed in daylight. We should never have all the canvas up at night, with any chance of a squall. Therefore, my answers may change a bit, if I’ve already anticipated the event.

 

[pdqaltair]

There are squats and there are squalls. A few 35 kt gusts, that's one thing, a real 60-100 kt micro burst, that is another. If you are SURE it is the first, then gust tactics work. Feather. Bear off. It depends. But if it could be the second type ....

Bare poles and start the engine. At a minimum you can stretch or completely blow out sails. That could be $5K-$10K. Was it worth keeping the sails up? Worse can be a serious knock down and down flooding (if the companionway is open, and I'm sure it is, a boat can flood fast--I saw a J-24 go down that way when I was a kid. I've seen beach cats cat wheel off the beach (one of them was mine) without a bit of sail on them. I watched my dinghy pinwheel horizontally from the painter, like a pinwheel.

And do you really know?

This is why you will get a range of advise. If I'm less than sure I just go to bare poles. No big deal. I figure sails are expensive and it would feel foolish to even stretch them. Simple. I don't have to weight whether I might be OK with bearing off or feathering. I did those thing in my youth and I don't need to any more.

 

[colemj]

There should be very, very few unexpected squalls. Like a white squall or clear air downburst, which is rare. Otherwise, you should be able to see them in daylight and detect them on radar at night. Yes, if you are sailing at night, you should have radar.

Years of cruising with regular squalls have taught us to just drop sails before they hit. Sometimes you feel stupid because it is just some rain and a little bit more wind. Other times you are relieved because the squall came with an immediate 180* wind shift, sheets of rain, and sustained high winds.

I'd rather feel stupid than stressed.

So our strategy is to not be caught unaware by a squall, and to drop sails early until we know what we are dealing with.

Dive masks are bad, ski googles are fine. Dive masks seal tightly, fog, cover your nose, and the pressure differential when moving around can blow eyeball capillaries. They also severely limit peripheral vision, and are difficult to communicate clearly with when wearing (plug your nose and try to converse). I say this as someone who spends several hours a day in a dive mask. It is one of those many unexamined memes that got propagated by an old cruiser who wrote books that people took as gospel without thinking further.

Mark

 

[pdqaltair]

... Dive masks are bad, ski googles are fine. Dive masks seal tightly, fog, cover your nose, and the pressure differential when moving around can blow eyeball capillaries. They also severely limit peripheral vision, and are difficult to communicate clearly with when wearing (plug your nose and try to converse). I say this as someone who spends several hours a day in a dive mask. It is one of those many unexamined memes that got propagated by an old cruiser who wrote books that people took as gospel without thinking further.

Mark

Note on ski googles. I do wear them in the winter a bit; they add a lot of warmth below about 40F. You nose stays warm and you'd be wearing glasses anyway.

Avoid the double lens type. I love them for skiing, but in driving rain and spray you can get water between the layers, which is bad. Quality single lens works for me.

Never tried a dive mask. Just sounds bad.

 

[Tuna Driver]

We were returning from Honolulu and encountering the usual squalls, when a big one dumped a LOT of rain of us. No one had ski goggles, but we did have a dive mask. It was the only way to see the compass 2 feet away. BTW, the Transpac guys have a saying, "exit stage left." That gives them more speed coming out of the counter clockwise rotating downdrafts. Delivery crews exit stage right where the velocity is much lower. No radar on race boats, or autopilots.

 

[SanderO]

You can usually see that a squall is coming... check the radar and the charts and make a plan...reduced sail may be needed.

 

[pdqaltair]

Gotta have radar? [face palm]

Are we that tech dependent? No four senses? Pitiful.

 

[Minnewaska]

Would you get in an airliner that didn’t have tech? While one needs to be able to sail or aviate, when it fails, tech has made both far safer overall.

Even in daylight, I’ve found radar to be very helpful with squalls. I was once crossing the Gulf of Maine, when I could see a huge unforcasted isolated thunderstorm coming off the coast. Visually, it was too big to pick a path. Even heaving to ran the risk of being run over. These cells move faster than we can sail, so avoidance needs to start early. With radar, I was able to time the cell movement and set a course to sail behind it, as it passed. One reef in each sail and we screamed behind in the side draft.

p.s. It was also the first time my wife had seen a thunderstorm black rain shaft up close and personal, from the boat. It was still 5 miles away, but so huge, you felt you could touch it. Of course, we’re getting drifting rain and wind that you can tell isn’t the same league as what’s inside that beast.

 

[colemj]

Gotta have radar? [face palm]

Are we that tech dependent? No four senses? Pitiful.

Yeah, count me in with radar. I'm not one of those super humans who can see squalls before it is too late in the dead of night. Maybe if they have lightning or it is a full moon and stars night, but otherwise that unexpected wind shift or a sudden drop in temperature just before everything breaks loose is my first warning. I've also cowardly used it countless times to track squalls at a distance and avoid the worst of them by changing direction appropriately.

Then there is that whole "see other boats" thing. Try sailing South on the East coast of Florida at night close enough to shore to stay out of the Gulf Stream. Hundreds of small unlit anchored or randomly moving fishing boats. I'm also bereft of the sense that allows me to detect those. Just to keep this part on topic - good luck seeing other boats around you in a squall at night without radar.

Radar with one's four senses is better in every way than one's four senses without radar.

Radar has nothing to do with tech dependence, and is certainly not pitiful.

Mark

 

[Arcb]

I am all for RADAR on big boats that can support RADAR and where RADAR is a good fit, but I am certainly not going to stop night sailing or sailing near thunderstorms because I don't have it.

If it's a clear night I can generally see a squal coming and can certainly see lightning and hear thunder. Probably time to stop sailing when I can't.

If it's an ugly night I am likely already reefed and sailing cautiously.

RADAR beneficial? Yes. Necessary? Not for me.

 

[pdqaltair]

Yeah, count me in with radar. I'm not one of those super humans who can see squalls before it is too late in the dead of night. Maybe if they have lightning or it is a full moon and stars night, but otherwise that unexpected wind shift or a sudden drop in temperature just before everything breaks loose is my first warning. I've also cowardly used it countless times to track squalls at a distance and avoid the worst of them by changing direction appropriately.

Then there is that whole "see other boats" thing. Try sailing South on the East coast of Florida at night close enough to shore to stay out of the Gulf Stream. Hundreds of small unlit anchored or randomly moving fishing boats. I'm also bereft of the sense that allows me to detect those. Just to keep this part on topic - good luck seeing other boats around you in a squall at night without radar.

Radar with one's four senses is better in every way than one's four senses without radar.

Radar has nothing to do with tech dependence, and is certainly not pitiful.

Mark

Having radar is not pitiful. I didn't say that.

Telling people they "need" it kinda it is. We'll disagree. I've never been jumped by a squall I did have a few minutes warning about. Could happen. The same thing will happen with radar, if you try to tell the strong squalls from the weak ones.

 

[colemj]

Telling people they "need" it kinda it is.

The closest anyone has come to making that statement is me when I said if one is sailing at night, one should have radar.

Let me qualify that with if one is regularly sailing at night, or doing many nights passages, one should have radar.

In both cases, I've never said "need", which is much different than "should".

I make a distinction between Arcb's small boat with a rare single night sailing where local weather forecasts are more predictive and the passage chosen to coincide to any changes, with regular night sailing for several days beyond local forecasts and little choice in weather should it change.

As I've mentioned, daylight, lightning, bright clear nights are easy to use visual to see squalls in time. But squalls often come at 3am during overcast nights with no lightning. On many boats, it isn't possible to just reach up from the helm and pull the main down, so one needs more time than a minute or two to unrig preventers and get a 70m2 sail down in a controlled manner.

Mark

 

[OntarioTheLake]

I'll admit it- I've been caught by squalls. In daylight too.

These oops fall into two categories: (1) I underestimated the squall I could see coming and (2) pop-up storms that come out of nowhere fast; in our area a storm can brew from nothing to 40,000' in five minutes.

Now, I am conservative and no longer tempt fate; when a squall is coming I prepare as if it's going to beat us hard. Or, sort of hard, we do usually keep some sail up. That said, there have been a couple occasions when in preparation I dropped the main, covered the main, and lashed 3/8" line around and around the covered main/ boom (I learned that the hard way too.)

No one had ski goggles, but we did have a dive mask

Prep is not all about sails.

Driving rain at 60+ knots is impossible to see through, and it hurts like heck. As well, a squall usually drops the temperature significantly AND add the wind and being wet, one can get cold mighty quick.

Thus I have learned THE HARD WAY to not only prep the sails. By the time the squall hits I have everyone below. At the same time, either on hand or ready to pass up: clear Oakley "sunglasses" and/or dive mask, foul weather jacket (I'm OK with frozen legs), folding blade attached to ME, knit cap, and gloves, life jacket, and harness.

Because when the squall hits, you're not going to be doing much of prep; it's too late to try to get the main down, it's too late to dig out the foulies.

*

Now, everyone has focused on squalls while under way. What about at anchor?

Probably THE worst squall I've been through was up in St. Lawrence at a popular anchorage. We had PLENTY of warning- HOURS. Weather tracked it for 400km and gave regular reports of what was getting torn up and how badly. An hour before it hit, right around sundown, we could finally see it, and the lightning for the next hour, marching toward us, was incredible. When it hit all boats went over at least 45 degrees. Then it was total mayhem.

Some people closed hatches. Some sat and watched the storm. Some continued drinking right up until clobbering time. I had a spare anchor on deck, the motor running, and I was fully suited when it hit- just like if I were at sea. We survived the initial hit, so it seemed we'd be OK. Being fully suited for the severe weather, I jumped into the dingy and started pulling sailboats off rocks, no easy feat in 60 knot winds, 2' seas, and blitzkrieg lightning. Most of the sailors in the anchorage though were unprepared in just about every way possible. Prep is what made the difference.

*

Now a light hearted squall tale.

It was an absolutely glorious friday evening, with two hours before sunset. We stayed at the dock and invited boating friends for a BBQ at the picnic table on the pier.

It was shaping up to be one of those wonderful meals. Chicken coming off the grill, umbrella up, table set with paper plates and condiments and silverware.

"Huh? What the heck is THAT?" I looked up and to the west. A solid black line over the trees- uh oh. Meaning, it was a mile away.

We had time to do nothing before it hit. Everything went flying. What we did grab was ripped out of our hands. Most of the meal and all the stuff ending up on the ground and flying off.

I'm sure this was on radar. But I didn't look at radar. I don't think I'd even turned on the VHF. It was a perfect evening, surely it would stay that way; it never occurred to me that there could possibly be any weather coming. I got learned.

 

[colemj]

(2) pop-up storms that come out of nowhere fast; in our area a storm can brew from nothing to 40,000' in five minutes.

I'm going to guess this is on the Great Lakes. Anyone who hasn't sailed the Great Lakes might not understand this point about going from a sunny cloudless dry warm day to 50kt winds and a 50F temp decrease in a matter of minutes. This is common on the Great Lakes for whatever meteorological or geographical reasons.

We've had a lot of Chesapeake squalls, and those wall lines of pure black cloud and wind are severe indeed, but none of them are on you as fast and furious as they come in the Great Lakes. I think they just form in place on top of you there.

Mark

 

[OntarioTheLake]

This is common on the Great Lakes for whatever meteorological or geographical reasons.

Wet ground plus heat, add sunshine (more heat) and voila. If it's over 80F there's a chance of storms; the hotter and more humid it is the faster they grow.

Prevailing winds from the N-NW feed more moisture onto the southern shores to build these storms; these winds also at times prevent the storms from moving. Or, they build and move east. The eastern end of Lake Ontario gets hammered by storms, both winter (more snow than Buffalo but no deaths), and summer. They build near us, we watch them, as I say, "go kick the cccrap out of Watertown."

Similarly, the area SE of Lake Erie. Watched it on radar yesterday, in PA south of NY border- they sat and grew and grew and stormed for hours.