I have a new Beneteau 45......no traveler. Single rudder and jib cars.....the wide beam, centered mast and hard chine all make it sail really well....very neutral and flat at 8-9knots

 

The no main traveler comes from racing boats!

But good engineering makes things simpler. Look on a tall ship of olden days and not only is it complicated but extremely expensive in materiels and maintenance and takes a huge crew to sail.

A few hundred years of great engineering has totally transformed sail boats.

 

Interestingly enough though, in some ways yachting is returning to the old ways. For centuries (millennia?) the masts on sailing vessels were stayed by rope. Then came cable, first steel, then stainless. Then came solid rod rigging, nice, but so expensive. Now we are returning to line to hold up our masts. Many of the Maxi-yachts are using line. Spliced and I even seen it served as in the days of old.
So, here at least, we've come full circle and perhaps soon, a rigger will become indispensable on the crew of every modern yacht.

 

njsail,

Did you ask what the reasoning was behind no traveler? Was the traveler an option? Nice boat by the way.

When Dufour had GibSea ( I think both owned by Bene at the time) lots of the GibSeas did not have travelers or vangs. I remember one of 37' that surprised me. Sailing that boat was OK, but a traveler would have made it a better rig.

 

Mark,
How does one get the boom to center without pulling out all the twist?

 

I don't know. I havent raced or been on one. But have seen a few around here in St Martin.
I am trying to google some now.

But this boat loots a bit superyachty...

 

It was not an option but letting out the main which is attached to the arch seems to be more than enough to do the same job as the traveler

 

Thank you for the feedback.

What kind of speed through the water can you get at 30 degrees apparent wind angle?

 

most cruisers don't spend a bunch of time fine tuning sail trim to start with, so probably even rarer adjust a traveler

 

...most cruisers don't spend a bunch of time fine tuning sail trim to start with, so probably even rarer adjust a traveler

I'm not a cruiser, but I primarily use my traveler to position the mainsheet for easy access to the companionway. I do pay attention to sail shape and tell tails, but only to the extent that nothing is grossly out of order. In fact I started a thread last year musing about the possibility of removing my traveler in favor of a single hard-point attachment (which, unfortunately, would be in the center…thereby hampering my access to the companionway!)

 

simplicity rules...and many new cruising boats are focused on this....maybe to the dismay of racer cruiser sailors of days gone by.

I think the new trend is because there is a lot more marketing and research these days and much more knowledge of what new cruisers want...or not.

to some this is good to others bad...but just like many other products, vehicles, goods, there is a trend of going back full circle if you will

the motorcycle industry is one that comes to mind for me, in certain types of models, where air cooled, simple controls, ergos and less computer gadgets are wanted so you experience what riders did 100 years ago...

I think that if a boat can be engineered to not need a traveller, not need complex running rigging to adjust and tune sails, not need massive amounts of hardware and gear to do the basics I think thats good because it attracts new sailors to the sport...

if cruising at least coastal can be made more accessible by doing so with simple modern boat designs I see that as good.

of course for those of us who want smart, well designed, tuneable and common cruising sense designs to cruise with I think we will have to go the way of custom designs.

I think there is a trend now of more custom boats than say 10, 20, 30 years ago...overall.

but cant confirm that.

 

I can't imagine not having a traveler. it makes my boat so much easier to handle than she would be with a fixed sheeting position.

 

Agreed. I've owned boats with and without a traveler and the difference is huge upwind. Maybe if you're using a rigid or 3Di-style soft foil you don't need it because the sail shape is less affected by mainsheet tension but with traditional fabric sails, it's very helpful to decouple the sail shaping function of the mainsheet from the angle of attack function of the traveler.

 

think about it...how many racing dinghies have travellers? if you make a dinghy and upsize it you get what many of these boats look like these days...

maybe a new trend should be a dyneema "traveller" like you find on a laser it wouldnt be adjusteable per se but at least the sheet blocks will travel to its "best position naturally by way of sheet adjustment

who knows???? jajajaja

 

Well, a really stiff boom held down by a really strong vang can accomplish what a traveler does, at least from midships to way out to leeward.

But if you can't easily pull the boom windward of centerline, then you're doomed to pulling the main down, but not in, once you're close-hauled. Meaning very little twist, which some of us would find limiting for upwind work.

Maybe a new generation of cruisers and designers don't think it's important?

 

Maybe a new generation of cruisers and designers don't think it's important?

BANG!!

"Hey, Honey, I just killed another land lubber guest! He tripped over the Traveler!"
"Thats terrible! Is the traveler OK?"

As they say cruisers at mostly at anchor even in active cruising years. Folks weekend sailing are different and so are racers.

So what is important for each of the three groups can be very different. One example is easy of sail handling... where a race boat can do a job in 30 seconds it may take Mum and Pop half an hour because the race boat had 10 people working in a cooridinated fashion for 10 seconds. Where Dad may have to walk up to the foredeck 3 or 4 times to do the same thing whilst Mum is on the helm...

On my comments about race boats not having travelers, I can't find any photos of full on race boats without them, but on the larger, newer cruising boats some are running the bitter end to a coverable u bolt in the cockpit deck and then UP through the boom, forward, and then down and to a winch in the cockpit. So when they are not sailing the bitter end is untied, a cover put over the u bolt and the cockpit is clear. The boom, of course, ebing held up by the vang, not often by a topping lift. Sorry if I've made a mistake with the race boat thing. Has anyone else seen them?

 

think thats the point...they are going for simple...midline performance is OK. if you want more then go for the extras

just like you would buying a car...

marketing
its also a better way to make money with add ons, on stuff that used to be included...
Ill add having said that its ibvious new boats perform better as a whole than equal length older boats...weight savings, design etc...so maybe the builders can get away with some savings gear wise? dunno

 

Unfortunately, we're in an age of "dumb" and "instant gratification". The more simple a system is, the more likely it's going to sell. Nobody wants to start out on the smaller boat and learn. They'd rather start on their 40+ foot yacht.

So why incur the expense of hardware that a majority of your potential customers don't care about? It may hurt your chances of selling a boat. "Hey look, just a few lines is all you have to learn and you're out looking like a playah fo' realz."
It isn't hard to get a sailboat to move. It IS hard to master good sail trim. Many don't want to learn the details. And that's fine. I just hope that type of sailor doesn't overwhelm the market to where a boat with those options becomes something made of unobtanium.

My hunter has no traveler and no jib cars and I wish it did. It's okay for the lake sailing I do but I have lots of points of sail where trim isn't optimal. I can't depower sails very easily in a gust, which we get a lot of here. I can't really shape the jib.
If I reef the jib, then the sheet angle goes to hell and they caution can possibly pop the roller furler drum. So I've got some weather conditions that are perfectly safe to sail in with the proper equipment but mine lacks such so I'm at the dock. The deck construction makes it impossible to add jib cars unless you really fubar the deck and interior. The traveler option is so narrow that it's not worth the expense.

I think I must be in a bad mood today. :laugher

 

Although I like a traveler, to each their own. This boat will sail well without the traveler, may give up a little upwind angle, but it is designed to make the customers happy. It has been a fairly successful model so something must be working.

 

I must be very OLD school...
I want a traveler where I (in normal captains position) can reach it... If I can also reach (within reason) the winches, even better.

No traveler? Well, I had a Capri 14.2, which drove me NUTSO (and it's a sailing/racing dinghy), because it only had a Barney Post for mainsheet control. What was worse was the aft end of the boom road on a block, across a line on the stern of the boat. One of the "performance mods" was to tie a loop in the middle of that line, so that when you sheeted, you could at least sheet to centerline... YAY! Having no traveler was a mistake on that boat, and frankly many others. If you ever sail upwind you'll miss not having one. My capri 22, and 25 separate the skipper from the crew with a mainsheet traveler, and I feel its a pretty good design, as I move up it was tops on my list of wants on my next boat. Nothing like being able to drop the traveler when you get oscillating winds.

 

Looks like the Arch on a Bene 45 is so close to the boom that it can be brought to near centerline.

 

And why all the dual wheels? I asked at a local boat show and the salesman told me it was for easier access to the stern and swim platform. Not sure if this way true or not but we charted a 50' bene with dual wheels and they took up a lot of cockpit space. In fact, for a 50' boat there was a distinct lack of comfortable lounging space in the cockpit or on deck.

Gonna have to go for a cat next charter just for the lounge factor.

 

And why all the dual wheels? I asked at a local boat show and the salesman told me it was for easier access to the stern and swim platform. Not sure if this way true or not but we charted a 50' bene with dual wheels and they took up a lot of cockpit space. In fact, for a 50' boat there was a distinct lack of comfortable lounging space in the cockpit or on deck.

This May I chartered a 39' Jeanneau that had the dual wheels. I kind of liked it. It was easy to get way over to see the jib and still keep a hand on the wheel, or even fiddle with the jib sheet with one hand while you steer with the other.

The only downside was that everyone, myself included, at some point used the unattended wheel as a handhold while moving around the cockpit. It's very unnerving when you're at the helm and suddenly the wheel jerks away from you.

 

It is odd that these new boats also have wide, flat beams, dual rudders and dual helms with carbon fiber wheels as an option. But then again, they also have throw pillows on the cockpit benches in the advertising photos!

Well, your first mistake is in assuming that SAILING actually has much of anything to do with the entire concept of "these new cruising boats"...

The romantic notion of "Sailing" is merely the Window Dressing used to flog today's cruising boats. Given the miniscule percentage of time the 'Consumer' will actually spend Sailing his Dream Boat - either over the course of owning it, or even when actively 'Cruising' aboard it - the sailing qualities of cruising boats are a very distant second to the aspect that Really matters:

Namely, ACCOMMODATION... Below, and in the cockpit... THAT is what sells boats today...

Haven't you ever watched what people do when boarding boats at Boat Shows? The overwhelming majority proceed directly "Downstairs", to see what it's like "Inside", and whether it might rate "The Admiral's" Stamp of Approval...



One thing I've always found fascinating, is that there is no marked distinction between Sailors and Stinkpotters in this regard... One might assume, given the importance of the rig and functionality of the cockpit towards the intended means of propulsion, sailors might be inclined to pay a bit more attention to all the stuff on 'The Outside', no? But, I sure don't see it, and that's why today's boats are created from the Inside/Out... Those Marketing Gurus are no dummies, after all...

There are some exceptions, of course... But not many...

 

Personally, I don't see the move toward simplicity. Two helms, two rudders, bow thrusters, mylar and other exotic sails, electronics that most of us don't use 25% of their features, transoms that fold down, roller furling, and on and on and on. Single braid, double braid, dacron, nylon, dyneema, poly this and poly that; just picking the right one for your needs can be a headache. I'm seeing electric winches on 35 foot boats! Watermakers, FLIR, side scanning sonars and so much more.
Many of these things make sailing easier and that makes sailing a lot more fun, but nowhere in there do I see simplicity.
I like my traveler. With a loose footed main (much more like a jib than a boomed sail) it's another adjustment of the sail w/o changing the sheet. In a squall, it's a way to dump wind w/o messing w/the sheet. And if I wanted to, I could actually sheet the main amidships or even to weather when beating.

 

I've yet to see a modern cruising boat that has the traveler anywhere near the helm so they seem pretty useless unless you are racing or have a huge crew. I sail with one other person which means one of us is always single handing. I didn't build my boat but I completely rebuilt it and when that shiny new taffrail was done the last thing in the world I would have considered putting on it was a traveler. I can steer into or off the gusts or just let my boat shake em which is what I usually do.

 

If by"huge" you mean one, then yes. You do need someone to hold the wheel/tiller...Or an autopilot... Or a tiller tamer/wheel lock.

That said, I agree that on a bigger boat it's a pain to use the traveler to buck gusts, better to set a high point of sail and manage gusts with the rudder.

 

I've been noticing that many of the newer cruising boats to hit the market, especially the new Beneteaus and Jeanneaus seem to be really trying to simplify sail control. For a while, now the trend seemed to be in-mast furling. Now, it seems they've even decided to deep-six the traveler completely.

Interestingly enough I was having lunch last Wed with a well known Maine boat builder and asked him this exact question, about one of his boats. The answer was that it was what the market wanted in that boat, and that is simplicity.

The decision to omit a traveler was not based on performance, or it would have had one, it was based on the targeted demographic of the boat.

I was working on a cruised J-42 yesterday and will be back on her today, she has a very SWEET traveler...

On our boat I use the traveler constantly for main control as I am apparently still a racer at heart. Of course it is conveniently located where it SHOULD be, right in front of me, not mid boom...........

Of all the boats I work on this is my favorite traveler. Of course Buffy & Skippy would not like the lack of dual helm stations or the lack of a table for 20 smack dab in the middle of the cockpit.......

 

I like how the positions are marked with numbers!

 

IMHO there's a lot of taking ideas from high performance single purpose boats, like the Volvo ocean racers, and "reapplying" it to coastal cruising:

For example, you've got a wide stern downwind racing sled with an open transom. That must be cool, fast, a sea worthy or those crews wouldn't be taking them offshore? Yea, it must be a modern, fast, seaworthy boat. Honey, I saw a boat just like that on TV in that race, remember?

Reapply to cruising, it translates to more room for accommodations aft, easy access to go swimming off the stern, and 2 wheels so nothing's in the way when you climb back aboard from your swim. You and your kids will not only have a great time swimming off the stern and lots of living space, but when you want to sail you'll be able to duplicate the roaring 40's experience while crossing the bay and amazing your friends.


To be honest and keep a balanced view, I've sailed boats like this on charter in the Caribbean and had a great time, fast reaching between islands. I did enjoy the extra room, and not having to remove the wheel to access the open transom for swim. My sail shape was imperfect.

But I did realize that I wasn't in the roaring 40's.

 

someone said targeted demographic...

nuff said

 

But the "targeted demographic" hasn't, I believe, changed too much over the years. For instance, my 1987 Catalina 27 was probably designed as a "family weekender". Yet it it still has a traveler. It has adjustable jib cars. Other than the fact that I have to go to the coach roof to trim the mainsail, it has all the controls that the J105 that I crew on has (except the backstay adjuster, though the J is a fraction rig versus my masthead catalina).

If I wanted a race boat, I would buy a J or Beneteau First or or similar. But if I want a cruiser to take my family on and still competitively race on Wednesday nights, I'd be out of luck with one of these new boats! I'd have to buy used!

 

I hear yah...but the point I was making a few pages back was that builders and designers TODAY have much more info to make design decisions based on wants and needs...

there is a lot more marketing and reserach these days because there is a lot more INFO.

I dont know what new cruisers or racer cruisers want or need these days but I know at least to some end that some of those wants and needs have much less to do with sailing characterstics and tuneability and more with

gadgetry
comms and nav equipment
bells and whistles
power this, heater that, shower this etc
bow thrusters for petes sake
and if we are talking benes and stuff whats all this about DOCK AND GO?

its obvious they are doing and selling these types of boats because there IS a demographic that would like these features.

its obvious to me at least when you see some of these new boats that they have features taken from many sources

if you look at the hull and sail rig you can see clear open class type design features, maybe also simplicity?

then you go down below and you have beatiful furniture and galley with a lot of landlubber wants and needs, sliding doors and whatnots

just saying that in general terms...if a designer or builder see that people dont want something I dont think any smart bean counter is going to say well even though they dont want fancy blocks and tracks and travellers well just go ahead and slap that on at $5-10k extra cost

UNLESS THEY DO SO AS AN ADD ON just like you would at a new car dealership

thats my point...

doesnt apply to all boats and designers and builders but for sure to SOME.

 

Well, what does someone in the market for a 30-35 foot boat do if the only thing out there are race boats or boats that are so user friendly that they can't point higher than 60 degrees but can practically dock themselves?

 

well they do point better...or equally...are you saying these new boats dont point high?

they probably point higher but maybe that has more to do with hull, keel and ridder design.

I have your same questions! whats an modern equivalent of say a westsail 32? or is that demographic simply gone? or not been tailored to?

hence my thoughts on custom boats being a tad bit more popular today than decades ago...

maybe just maybe is because those wanting those types of boats have no option but to build them themselves or have them custom made at great expense?

look at this article and see what people these days, article writers and editors consider blue water or pocket?

look at the first pic, the damn first 5 feet if boat is out in the air, effectively slamming each wave...yet the brains here consider this somewhat bluewaterish?
look at the questions posed by the writers
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2014/04/xc-35-modern-pocket-bluewater-cruiser.html

who would go cruising in such a small boat, who could deal with such little space and comforts, etc?

if you dont think the demographic and wants and needs have changed you and I are fooling ourselves...of course it has...

xc35 performance article
http://www.x-yachtsgb.com/news/company/xc-35-in-its-element-1?contentmap=11390

note speed upwind for 20knots...its not that fantastic compared to what say a c+c35 or hell my islander 36 does...

 

well they do point better...or equally...are you saying these new boats dont point high?

they probably point higher but maybe that has more to do with hull, keel and ridder design.

I have your same questions! whats an modern equivalent of say a westsail 32? or is that demographic simply gone? or not been tailored to?

hence my thoughts on custom boats being a tad bit more popular today than decades ago...

maybe just maybe is because those wanting those types of boats have no option but to build them themselves or have them custom made at great expense?

Honestly, I don't know. I've never sailed one. I just don't think that in 8 or less knots UW, you are going to get the top telltale streaming on the main. If you over trim the mainsheet, you are going to be pulling out all twist.