Semi flex panels are now around $1 a watt. Search

2x's..? Much more

 

I was curious about this as well but never got answers other that marinized, quality and most important using top bin cells which means less imperfections and higher efficiency. The latter arguably means higher cost and really getting the most out of a boats precious real-estate. But still.....

having 20 year old non-marinized 85W BP panels on our boat that still work well lends a perspective to me that the mucho-extra $ is not worth it.

So...last year I installed a 160W Renogy flexible panel ($250) on our bimini. It proofed itself electrically and mechanically tested on our cruise all last summer to Southern California and back. Given how well it works am now in process of replacing the BP wing panels with Renogy 100W ($179 each) flexible panels mounted on a frame I'm making with parts from 80/20 inc. (very cool erector set stuff). I'm betting I'll get years of use.

btw...the solara and solbian are more like 3-4X the cost. Wonder what the profit margin is?

It's also interesting to me that Marine vendors like E-marine and Coastal Climate only carry the high end stuff. Got to be profit margin. They tell stories of cheap panels burning up but I think if that were true we'd be hearing it from more than the vendors. This board would be lit up with every failure.

anyways...my 2 cents.

 

I was curious about this as well but never got answers other that marinized, quality and most important using top bin cells which means less imperfections and higher efficiency. The latter arguably means higher cost and really getting the most out of a boats precious real-estate. But still.....

This is exactly the kind of details I'm trying to ascertain. If I'm paying 2x for an additional 5% efficiency, it's just not cost-effective. Yet all I keep getting when I ask the question is "better". But given the $1000s they're asking me to spend, I feel like I'm entitled to know details, and they haven't been forthcoming so far.

having 20 year old non-marinized 85W BP panels on our boat that still work well lends a perspective to me that the mucho-extra $ is not worth it.

So...last year I installed a 160W Renogy flexible panel ($250) on our bimini. It proofed itself electrically and mechanically tested on our cruise all last summer to Southern California and back. Given how well it works am now in process of replacing the BP wing panels with Renogy 100W ($179 each) flexible panels mounted on a frame I'm making with parts from 80/20 inc. (very cool erector set stuff). I'm betting I'll get years of use.

btw...the solara and solbian are more like 3-4X the cost. Wonder what the profit margin is?

I was seeing 2x of the next most expensive option ... but, yes, they are more than 2x the typical panel.

It's also interesting to me that Marine vendors like E-marine and Coastal Climate only carry the high end stuff. Got to be profit margin. They tell stories of cheap panels burning up but I think if that were true we'd be hearing it from more than the vendors. This board would be lit up with every failure.

I'm starting to think that I'm falling into an area where the vendors assume that if I can afford a boat I can shut the f*ck up and pay their huge profit margins.

I have seen accounts of cheapo panels failing. Enough to make me avoid the extreme low-end ones, but not enough to make me believe it's anything more than poor quality control on the part of the cheapo manufacturers. All the failures I've seen documented happened well within the warranty period (clearly a manufacturing defect) so have not been more than a nuisance to the people experiencing them.

 

There are sub-markets at every price point.

Some brands hand-made in Europe cost 20x per watt, and they are selling fast as they can make them.

Why ask why? Just buy the ones that make sense to you!

 

Hi Bill, how large of an order of panels can you assemble? Not just for your boat, which might be only a few, but perhaps for friends or for your house or cabin, etc.? There are tax benefits these days still to consider.

I have quotes from EverExceed in China for about 25 cents per watt. For less than container load there is a surcharge, but that $300 is nothing really.

Anyway I'm just suggesting a different approach - go for lowest price and not for the highest quality or efficiency at an extreme cost. Panel technology is sorta like your laptop, in a few years things can change dramatically.

 

I think you'll find the quality control and efficiency to be better than is suggested above, however, certainly not to the scale that the price increase suggests.

One major factor on sailboats is finding enough real estate to mount enough wattage. Panel wattage is not the entire story, it's how well they perform in lower light, indirect light, etc. No panel every makes their published wattage. I think the higher end panels generally do better, but again, not to the extent of the price increase.

For me, I'd like to fill the cabin top with panels, but no more. Getting the absolute most wattage in the most circumstances in the smallest footprint is important to me. I also want to be able to walk on mine, so that really jacks the cost. The best price per watt is going to be rigid panels that you puke all over the boat. I love the idea of the energy independence, but don't love the look.

 

I think you'll find the quality control and efficiency to be better than is suggested above, however, certainly not to the scale that the price increase suggests

This is the key part of the question, for me.

I _might_ be willing to pay significantly more for panels, if someone can justify it. But just saying, "they're better" doesn't mean anything. If they're 1% more efficient in full sunlight, that's not worth 5x the cost (for example).

 

The difference between Solara and other panels is their quality and reliability in a marine environment. My first panels from Solara lasted 12 years – so I replaced them with the new M series fixed on the bimini (low weight (5kg), high efficiency (22%)). With the new panel, I now run the fridge (on sunny days) without any worry. I tried cheaper solutions twice – first lasted one month, second a little bit longer: 3 month.

 

The difference between Solara and other panels is their quality and reliability in a marine environment. My first panels from Solara lasted 12 years - so I replaced them with the new M series fixed on the bimini (low weight (5kg), high efficiency (22%)). With the new panel, I now run the fridge (on sunny days) without any worry. I tried cheaper solutions twice - first lasted one month, second a little bit longer: 3 month.

Would be interested to learn what brand of cheap panel you purchased that failed in one month and three months. I purchased a couple of cheap panels from Grape Solar, one that has been on the boat several years and both are working perfectly.

 

The main difference in the price range might be that Solara is still produced in Germany (once the leading nation in solar power). So you have to decide if you really need a “BMW” as solar panel …

 

It was a no name 50 watt panel (fiberglass panel) for 350$ (Compass24), the cable detached from the panel after a short time (was all refunded – I just did throw the panel into the next bin). So for a flexible panel of 110 watt about three times the cost seemed OK for me (Solara Power M 110 watt). And I did need a panel which would fit on top of my binimi (100 x 66 x 0.3 cm)

 

Put in top-notch wiring, flexible controller(s), and a mounting arrangement that will work for a variety of sizes.

Start out with Chinese cheap as chips set.

If they don't last long, see how you feel and what's then available.

Things can change pretty quick.

Or who knows you might get lucky.

 

Put in top-notch wiring, flexible controller(s), and a mounting arrangement that will work for a variety of sizes.

Start out with Chinese cheap as chips set. If they don't last long, see how you feel and what's then available. Things can change pretty quick.

Thanks John, this is exactly my previous point. Also remember that 2/3 of the world's solar panels are made in China, just like most of the products (or components thereof) you use everyday: WalMart, Cummins, American flags, Craftsman tools, etc.

 

Much of the decision making depends on the type of sailing you do for many. If you’re frequently off the grid or in places where replacing them will be difficult or impossible that small increment in service life or reliability may make sense. Our boat occasionally runs for weeks on its alt energy and we want to save the diesel for propulsion. We aren’t high lat sailors nor doing the long transits of the Pacific. Still, it made sense to go at least middle of the road and avoid cheap panels due to the hassles of potential failures or drop in output.
So far of all our systems the solar and wind have been the least maintenance/most reliable systems.

 

I encourage all those who smoke to smoke more. The sooner you die, the less expensive it will be for the rest of us.

Kidding. I know it's an addiction, but I seriously can't believe it's still legal outside one's own home, smoking only what you grew yourself. While everything from salt to alcohol is bad for you, smoking is in another zip code. Have you every heard of anyone taking up smoking after the age of 25? Happens to be when one's brain is finally fully formed.

Google returns plenty of discussion on the subject of solar cell quality. You must be looking for a mathematical formula, which does not exist. A premium solar cell is absolutely not more efficient, by proportion to it's cost. They are sold by better companies, who will likely be around to stand behind their warranty, they have features that are superior (connectors, etc), you can reliably walk on those designed for it, but it's really up to you whether these matter.

I read of people buying cheap Chinese electronics all the time and the swear it was the best deal ever. I also read of folks who nearly burn their boats down, with the stuff. I choose not to buy cheap electronic stuff, just because there are some who have success with them.

YMMV

 

Maybe that link will help you –
solara/eu

 

Let me stop this discussion this way – It looks to me that you are convinced from the beginning not to buy Solara and just wanted to reassure yourself. I myself cannot complain about that brand because there was nothing to complain. And it might be different in the great lakes area or Florida to have a replacement for your panel. In remote locations you certainly don’t want the trouble to find another solar panel that fits you.

 

In regards to semi-flexible panels the Solbians & Solara's have been, by far, the most durable & reliable semi flexible panels we've seen out there. Perfect? No, they are semi-flexible and the wafers are really not very flexible. Lots of cheap imitations, and lots and lots of failures of the cheap imitators, including some fires & burned bimini's. Even when the cheapo's don't fail they have a poor reputation to deliver on specified ratings so I always recommend customers test them asap before installation and return them if they are out of spec or don't match under identical test conditions..

That said, semi-flexible panels, no matter who makes them, won't out last a good quality rigid panel. You're essentially paying for the ability to mount it direct to canvas, the lack of weight and the high efficiency of the SunPower® cells Solbian or Solara are using..

One must also keep in mind that SunPower® does not use standard industry grading, but the cells are graded. When you see a knock off panel claiming "A" grade SunPower you know they are simply lying to you because SunPower® does not sell any cells with an "A" grade..

SunPower® has 10 grades of cells they offer to vendors all the way down to Bin-X "Chipped or Cracked Cell". Oh and yes they do have pricing and plenty of buyers for Bin-X cells.

In their high efficiency panels Solbian & Solara use SunPower® cells called; Ultra High Performance. Most of the Chinese manufacturers are using SunPower® cells marked Bin-D or lower. The price difference Solbian pays over a Bin-D cell, and their Ultra High Performance Cells, is 514% more based on 2015 pricing.

This is why folks often think Solbian is "ripping them off" when in fact the cells Solbian or Solara are using cost them 514% more than what the Chinese are often slapping into their panels. Of course both are using "SunPower®" cells, though more and more Chinese producers will use Sun Power, Sun-Power or Sunpower cells (not at all made by SunPower®) so the consumer automatically assumes they are the same. They are not and the latter are all counterfeits posing as SunPower®.

You simply can't buy the raw cells Solbian or Solara use for the price the Chinese can sell a complete panel for and the above is why. FWIW Kyocera recently pulled out of the US market so be very careful with "Kyocera" branded panels as the counterfeits are already out there.

 

Bill,

The kind of independent third party performance and life expectancy testing is available for 60 and 72 cell (residential and commercial) silicon solar modules. It is performed by groups like Intertek, Frauenhoffer institute, DNV-GL etc and reports are regularly available, though usually not free.

Folks (mostly solar project investors) are willing to pay for this testing because they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars on building solar plants based on expectations of output over 25 years or more.

As far as I know, no similarly rigorous testing exists for small consumer grade (or Marine) modules and I presume that is because there is no customer group willing to pay what it costs to do the testing.

So we're stuck with anecdotes and company reputation to inform our choices. You make your choice, you pay your bill.

~fortunat

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

Am I missing something? Solara solar panels are about 2x as expensive as any other manufacturer I can find......

Bill, your last post made me wonder what your OP was all about. It certainly doesn't look like you're asking for input, rather just an opportunity to argue your point. Yes, you are missing something, as well articulated by Maine Sail. You seem to only want to do the math comparing acquisition vs replace upon failure. I can't even tell if you're comparing thick metal framed rigid panels to semi-flexible, which serve two different purposes, when you get into the 5x argument. You're not posting examples, either.

That doesn't mean one should only buy the most expensive. Get what makes you happy. Just be sure it's a reputable brand. Super cheap electronics burn boats down, including their neighbors.

The solar controller is going to be your next decision. There has been more than one controller melt down post on this forum.

 

There have been a few posts on here claiming that they "know what I mean" or similar phrasing, and that I was trying to start a fight or that I wasn't really asking a question or whatever. This is insulting to me, but enough people have stated it that I'm wondering if the fault is mine for not communicating clearly enough. Please stop putting words in my mouth, though. I never stated that I was going "super-cheap" ... in fact, I stated _MULTIPLE_ times that I intend to go with name brand panels, regardless of whether I use Solara or not.

So, I'm going to attempt to clarify without getting angry, and while constantly reminding myself that most people online don't know me and don't even know how much of an insult they're rendering ...

First off, I'm talking about rigid, non-walkable panels. Personally, I don't see why that matters as long as we're comparing like to like (which is why I didn't bother to include it) but there you go.

To understand my reason for asking the question, let me tell the whole story in excruciating detail.

I decided to hire an installer for the solar mounts and panels so I can work on other projects and get the work done faster. The first installer I tried to work with was terrible, he didn't answer my questions, didn't listen to my needs, quoted me an installation that I'm 95% sure would not have even fit on my boat, etc ... The solar panels were only part of the issue because he was supposed to build the arch, do the wiring, etc, and after a few discussions I wasn't comfortable hiring him to do ANY of those things. (He actually told me that the import tax went up the higher the wattage of the panels ... not winning any credibility with lies that can easily be fact-checked)

Part of what came from that discussion was the Solara panels, which this installer insisted on using because they were "better" ... and that's literally the only explanation I could get from him for their high price.

At this point I've found another installer that I think is going to work out. And he asked me what panels I'd like to purchase (because he builds frames, the wiring will be my responsibility and he just needs to know sizes)

So I'm now down to making my own decision about the panels. I started doing research on the internet. I could find NO explanation for the price difference. The wattage is the same. The warranty is the same. I found one complaint about Solara failure and warranty issues online. I found a similarly small number of complaints about other name-brand panels (yes, there are LOTS of complaints about no-name panels, but I was never planning to go that cheap).

At this point, I'm worried that there's something I'm missing. I _can_ afford the Solara if I want. It's more than I budgeted for, but there's some money in the budget for unexpected surprises. Maybe there's something I'm missing and it's worth the extra money? Why can't I find an explanation.

So I came to this community, because (quite frankly) this is the most knowledgeable online community I know of for this kind of thing.

I did not have my mind already made up. In fact, not having placed the order yet, I'm still open to changing it if someone comes up with compelling evidence.

You've read the thread. If you feel there is compelling evidence in this thread that I'm somehow missing, feel free to quote it exactly ... because if I were capable of seeing it, I would have. What I suspect is that there's a difference of opinion ... that people who own Solara panels and haven't had trouble believe that is compelling evidence, whereas I find it anecdotal. My stand on this is that if Solara wants me to pay 5x for higher reliability panels, that cost should be reflected in the warranty. It is demonstrably not.

Based on the feedback, the only explanation I have for the extra cost is the 4% efficiency improvement over other panels. This is hardly surprising given the fact that the last 20% of improvement usually accounts for 80% of the cost. However, I have enough space to get the power I need at 18%, so I can't really justify the cost.

 

Solar is fun, not frustrating. If one can fit the capacity to keep up with their power usage and are okay with the look of the panels they choose, it's pretty exciting. I rarely like the look of rigid installations, but don't criticize them. Just not what I prefer to do.

Having to choose between top of the line and discounted panels/cells can be frustrating, but you have the story now. I often find the answer after an evening of sundowners.

 

Yes, there is no objective data, everything is opinion on this topic, and value for money spent completely subjective, depending not least on wealth and willingness to DIY.

My take is, get the base mounting platform(s) built professionally so any size panels can be mounted.

Start off DIYing the actual solar hookup, or just hire the labor, with respected but cheap brand names like Grape or Renogy (just kidding but serious, up to you) at a reasonable cost per watt and most watts fitting per available area.

Forget about warranty.

See how you go. If you get 3 years average and that's OK for you, rinse and repeat. If you get less than you'd hoped for, **at that time** choose a different option, by then new choices may have come along.

If they last ten years, congratulations you saved thousands!

And most important, relax, enjoy the process, no stress have fun with it, life's too short, it's all small stuff.

 

If one could predict the math with certainty and it was a longevity trade, say 3 times the cost for 3 times the service life, I would take the service life every time. I have enough to do aboard than to deal with failures more often.

If I was selling the boat, I might think differently, but it's not really my style. I prefer quality. It usually pays off, but that's in the eye of the beholder going in, as there are no guarantees. Hope the OP lets us know what he chooses and keeps us abreast of how it goes.

I think I said this before, but do not skimp on the controller and install, whatever panel you buy.

 

If one could predict the math with certainty and it was a longevity trade, say 3 times the cost for 3 times the service life, I would take the service life every time. I have enough to do aboard than to deal with failures more often.

Given the discussion in this thread, you may be surprised to know that I am usually of the same opinion. Most of the work I've done on this boat is using the best quality materials available.

But the Solara panels have two factors that are making me approach them differently:
1) They are about 5x the cost for 3x the service life ... so not an easy 1:1 decision
2) They are a technology that is under massive development right now. There is a good chance that anything I buy today will be obsolete long before its service life is up.

No guarantees, I know ... solar technology might not make any major advancements for 20 years, or it might take a quantum leap next year. *shrug*

Hope the OP lets us know what he chooses and keeps us abreast of how it goes.

I'll surely make a video once everything is complete, but here's the current state of things.

A welder is currently making a new bimini frame for me. I'm trying to get a set of panels sized up and into his shop so he can weld mounting brackets on there.

My preferred vendor right now is LG (price is reasonable, and large, trusted company) but I can't find anything from their lineup that fits the space I have (GRRR!)

I've got almost 70" fore to aft, but anything much wider than about 35" is going to be a challenge to fit side to side. I'd like to get at least 400W of power, total, using 2 panels. To clarify that dimension, 2 panels at 35" wide each for a total width of about 70".

So, unless someone knows of LG panels in this range, I'm currently leaning toward these: https://www.renogy.com/renogy-160-watt-12-volt-polycrystalline-solar-panel/
They'll fit fine, but they're a bit below the desired production.

Then I tripped over these: https://www.ecodirect.com/Ameresco-Solar-4200J-24-Volt-200W-p/ameresco-4200j.htm
They're pretty much perfect all around ... except I've never heard of that company before. They're expensive, so I'm hoping that means they're better quality than most? Is anyone familiar with that brand? Are they expensive because they're good? They're in the range where I wouldn't mind paying that for 2x the service life.

I think I said this before, but do not skimp on the controller and install, whatever panel you buy.

I've already settled on Victron for the controller. As soon as I pick a set of panels I can size it out and get it ordered.

 

If one could predict the math with certainty and it was a longevity trade, say 3 times the cost for 3 times the service life, I would take the service life every time. I have enough to do aboard than to deal with failures more often.

I just don't buy the 3X service time bit. While I'm into quality as well, and not on a budget, I'm still willing to take a little risk that mass production panels will outlast my use of them.

btw...victron controller with blue tooth is very cool! It's fun to watch it crank up the watts when needed.

 

my son wass a process engineer ad was in charge of a line manufacturing solar. He described the benefits over the last 20 years as improving the manufacturing process to limit defects that cause cells to be less efficient. So according to him you are right...the big improvements have come from quality. but is has been pretty good improvement from low teens to over 20% efficient now. There are better efficient cells in the labs such as using gallium arsenide but not ready for prime time manufacturing and cost point.

I would expect the improvements in price etc. to continue to improve at about a 6-7% per annum. Seems to be the same story with batteries.

 

Yeah, I think there are physical limits to how efficient PV cells can be.

I think the improvements will be gradual reductions in cost. It'd be nice if the durable ones got affordable. Imagine if you could affordably cover your whole deck.

 

part of your sail cloth will really be the game changer

 

Apparently I'm incorrect, there are much more efficient cells that aren't production ready.

Wikipedia says a German company has got up to 46% efficiency:
Efficiency

 

....Wikipedia says a German company has got up to 46% efficiency:

No doubt twice the efficiency will be three times the cost. :wink

Just like lithium batteries. Although, as I think I've said in this thread, there really is disproportional value in getting notably more capacity in the same footprint, especially on boats with such limited space.

 

And then the thread will be 'why are these sails so expensive'?