For racing boats, big wheels allow the helmsman to sit further to windward for better visibility of the jib luff (and tell-tails) and to move weight to the rail.

 

Only race boats
Aha i understand cruisers don't go to windward....

 

So you can sit on the windward side and steer. The large diameter also give you the leverage to steer with minimal effort.

 

I agree about widward sitting and better visibility, but I do not agree about leverage. One can achieve same leverage with either a larger wheel or larger gear ratio to steering quadrant.

 

Ever driven a boat w/ a small wheel in a following sea. Not fun.
Jim

 

To make the helmsman feel bit and Macho.


.

 

An amplification of JeffH's comments:

Another quite important factor for simplicity of 'leverage' as provided by the common large wheel system is that such a system is whats known as 'overhauling' ... meaning that when the boat is moving forward, when the wheel is 'released' by the helmsman, the wheel will automatically return back to center and the boat will come close to sailing in a straight line --- all by itself.
The same 'overhauling' design is found on automobiles: force the wheel to make the turn, release pressure on the steering wheel and the forward motion of the vehicle automatically returns the wheel to near 'dead center'. Imagine if you had to always 'actively' steer an automobile for both steering wheel directions - into the turn and then back to center !!!!

In contrast, with a complex gear/lever system that has great 'mechanical advantage' as needed by a 'small' wheel youll find that youll have to FORCE such a (small) wheel back to its centered position and with an accompanied reduction of feedback you'll hardly ever know where the boat is now heading without constant visual clues. A blind man can easily steer a boat with an overhauling steering system; virtually impossible for that blind man to do with non-overhauling steering!!!! With non-overhauling steering (high mechanical advantage/small wheel) sailing at night becomes an extremely tiring 'struggle' even if the input forces on the steering system are small.
Inotherwords, with a non-overhauling system, one must 'actively' steer the boat in both directions: steering to new course and then actively steering the wheel back to center - for TWICE the work! Many 'cruising' boats from the 80's and early 90s with high mechanical advantage ('rack and pinion', etc.) and 'small' wheel steering are like this - a royal PITA to steer, especially at night. Additionally, such 'high mechanical advantage' systems do not provide much 'feedback' to the helmsman and even with minimal force needed to turn the wheel, the AMOUNT of constant 'active' steering needed is extra-tiring.

Rx: dont steer a sailboat as if youre driving a bus. Get out from behind that wheel and sit your butt on the cap rail to watch the jib's leading edge luff shape. The bigger the wheel, the further away from the boat's center line you can sit ... so you can easily watch for that all important 'luff break' on the jib.

;-)

 

Rx: dont steer a sailboat as if youre driving a bus. Get out from behind that wheel and sit your butt on the cap rail to watch the jib's leading edge luff shape. The bigger the wheel, the further away from the boat's center line you can sit ... so you can easily watch for that all important 'luff break' on the jib.

;-)

Sorry, but that's becoming a heretical notion, today... What, you didn't see that Mega Throne mounted behind the helm on the Seaward 46 at the Annapolis show a while back?

)

Every year, I'm seeing more and more boats being fitted out with these things... Time to get with the program, Rich... )

Hard to imagine a more comfortable steering position in a seaway, no?



Sailing comfort is the Helmseat

 

Now I understand why a worm gear never caught on. TY.

 

Our last boat had an 'ego' wheel, and a somewhat unique A frame support pedestal.. We did a lot of upwind sailing and the best seating was outboard, to windward, straddling the wheel with your feet propped on the sides of the pedestal. Loved that set up!

 

Nice... but, I'll bet that setup might give one pause, when maneuvering around behind the wheel during a switch of the helmsman on a dirty night offshore, no? )

I've never been able to shake the feeling that the massively oversized wheel on his J-46 CIELITA might have been a significant contributing factor to the loss of Ned Cabot in a gale off the west coast of Newfoundland a few years ago. After all, he had just come on deck, and was in the process of taking the helm when they were knocked down, and Ned went overboard...

That's always been one of my biggest objections to wheels on smaller boats, the risk of exposure during the simple act of climbing back around them...

 

Well Jon, sadly I guess youre correct ... have you ever seen the 'helm station' on a Moxie "Island Hopper" Catamaran? .... complete with a round dining table sized 'window' and located directly behind the mast?

If you havent, imagine steering an 18 wheeled over-the-road Kenworth semi .... with the steering wheel just aft of the friggin RADIATOR. WTF

 

I would venture a guess that a significant number of the newer boats, and all the high-priced ocean racing boats, have hydraulic steering, which means the boat could be steered with a joy-stick. My boat has a relatively small wheel, but not hydraulic steering - just a somewhat larger quadrant, which makes it almost feel like power steering at times. Sure, I get some weather helm, but it's not severe.

One of the biggest benefits of the smaller wheel is that no one has to climb over anything to get to the helm. Additionally, when the helm station was installed, it was intentionally installed offset to port so the mast was not always directly in your line of sight.

My helm seat is a very comfortable, pedestal mounted, swivel helm seat that would normally be used on a powerboat. It has padded arm rests, padded back rest, and I added another cushion for the seat to make it even more comfortable, and to raise my height a bit so I could see the compass better. I've spent up to 12 hours behind the wheel in this seat and never had any discomfort at all.

In the not too distant future, I can readily envision the helm seat with a joy-stick handle at the end of the arm-rest and no wheel at all. Makes perfectly good sense to me.

Cheers,

Gary

 

I would venture a guess that a significant number of the newer boats, and all the high-priced ocean racing boats, have hydraulic steering, which means the boat could be steered with a joy-stick. :

Hydraulic steering is almost never used on race boats and for the most part is only used on larger luxury cruising boats. Hydraulics tend to be expensive, unreliable, high maintenance, and have minimal feel. That said, many larger boats used hydraulic rams for their autopilots.

My helm seat is a very comfortable, pedestal mounted, swivel helm seat that would normally be used on a powerboat. :

That type of seat works well when motoring down the intercoastal but makes no sense if you are trying to get decent sailing performance, and makes it very hard to keep a decent lookout when under sail.

In the not too distant future, I can readily envision the helm seat with a joy-stick handle at the end of the arm-rest and no wheel at all. Makes perfectly good sense to me.
Gary

Actually that exists today to some extent, although its even worse since the joy stick is on the portable remote device for the autopilot.

Ah, never considered how a big wheel allows you sit outboard more. Blind to obvious I am.

I don't totally agree with the notice that you need them for leverage though. I wonder if anyone has ever had two sizes of wheels on board. One for fair weather and autopiloting - if only to make more room in the cockpit.

I don't totally agree with the notice that you need them for leverage though. I wonder if anyone has ever had two sizes of wheels on board. One for fair weather and autopiloting - if only to make more room in the cockpit.

My boat came with three wheels; a 60" four-spoke, titanium racing wheel, a 56" 10-spoke, stainless steel offshore racing wheel, and a 42" 'cruising' wheel which I suspect was the original wheel for the boat. The 60" racing wheel is an abolute joy to steel. The lack of momentum and precision teel is amazing.

The 56" wheel has a very solid feel, but it has a lot more momentum and so is a bit more tiring to steer and you feel it in your wrists after a very long sail (8-12 hours on the helm).

The downsides of the big wheels is that it takes a bit of wiggle to slither past the wheel and the space between the wheel and the side of the cockpit is not for the corn fed.

I have only mounted the 'cruising wheel' once. Besides for looking silly and not being able to reach the wheel when sitting in a postion where you could see over the cabin or look up the slot, it was very difficult to steer a straight course since small movements of the wheel were bigger movements of the rudder and it took more force to move the wheel so you were more prone to oversteer.

(My wife Barbara testing the limits of heel before a wipe-out, not that she actually wanted to find the limit....)

Jeff

 

small wheels use the gears to get the leverage but at the coast of more turns of the wheel to go from lock to lock. most large wheel boats with mechanical steering are only 3/4 turn from lock to lock.
a lot of the new boats are fitting with two smaller wheels because the cockpits are so much wider on the new designs.

 

.....
a lot of the new boats are fitting with two smaller wheels because the cockpits are so much wider on the new designs.

Once again, to get the helmsperson outboard with good sightlines.. which these super wide cockpits couldn't do with a single wheel anymore - the 'wheel well' would be deeper than the hull itself..

but imagine the single-finger touch of a 12 foot wheel!

 

I don't like wheels that are set in slots. Somehow, something small but important (or messy) will always get in there at the least convenient moment and then you've got to figure out how to get it out again.

But it sounds like I'm the only one who got the memo:

Racing boats DO NOT have large wheels any more! Large wheels went out shortly after chaining the slaves to the oars. Racing boats now have two small wheels, one offset to each side, so the helmsman can always sit high, always reach the wheel, and have less clutter aft.

And a proper helm throne? Come on, guys. Doesn't anyone read their Hammacher Schlemmer catalogue any more? They all come with heated massage rollers these days. That cheap stuff with just plain padding....I don't know, I think you folks have been slumming for too long!

 

Well, Once again I find myself the subject of Sailnet ridicule due to my pursuit of comfort afloat. I'm with Gary, after standing from San Francisco to San Diego first thing I bought was a cushy seat.

 

Hey, if that works well for you, good on 'ya...

As Jeff says, such seats can be nice while motoring in flat water, with a book or a drink in one hand, and an autopilot remote in the other But I have yet to ever see a forward-facing helm seat on a sailboat that would not become extremely tiring to use in very short order when steering in a seaway, or become very uncomfortable at a 15-20 degree angle of heel... But hell, perhaps that's just me... ;-)

I've spent a fair amount of time with my butt parked in some very expensive state of the art helm seats from manufacturers such as Stidd or Recaro, steering sportfishermen or top-heavy motoryachts in a following or quartering sea...

In my experience, there is a very good reason why on virtually all such boats that will be helmed from such a seating position, are following the lead of bus drivers and truckers in their use of the most ergonomic orientation of their wheels is far and away the best, and least tiring solution...

anyone ever seen a bus, or an 18-wheeler, with a wheel mounted vertically? I didn't think so... )

 

My wheel is only 20", it's a bit too small IMO, I'd prefer 24", those couple of extra inches would make it just a touch more comfortable to steer from the windward coaming without significantly affecting the ease of getting around it.

 

We had a similar complaint and were able to find another boater who wanted to go the other way - so we swapped!.. Everybody happy now..

 

Ah, never considered how a big wheel allows you sit outboard more. Blind to obvious I am.

I don't totally agree with the notice that you need them for leverage though. I wonder if anyone has ever had two sizes of wheels on board. One for fair weather and autopiloting - if only to make more room in the cockpit.

 

Ah, never considered how a big wheel allows you sit outboard more. Blind to obvious I am.

I don't totally agree with the notice that you need them for leverage though. I wonder if anyone has ever had two sizes of wheels on board. One for fair weather and autopiloting - if only to make more room in the cockpit.

A practical, but not cheap, solution to the 'room in cockpit' aspect is Lewmar's folding wheel.

http://www.lewmar.com/products.asp?id=8538&channel=1

Others simply remove the wheel and strap it to a lifeline or pulpit for socializing at rest.

 

"Yup; but also too, these 'fat assed' broad-beamers NEED two rudders "

Rich, surely you are jesting, you know better than that.

Those boats don't NEED two rudders. But the fact is that having two shallow rudders, and keeping one out of the water while the other is more vertical in the water, reduces the drag from the rudders to about 1/2 of what one traditional deep (long) rudder would have.

Those boats don't NEED two rudders, but having two rudders is FASTER than dragging one bigass plank behind the boat. Any boat that heels could benefit from that, if the owners were willing to PAY for performance.

Heck, even a Laser28 could benefit from that.

 

Jeff, I disagree with you on that seat. I've sailed both Chesapeake Bay and offshore using that seat, my view in completely unobstructed, and because the seat swivels and locks, I can position it any way I want. Don't knock it till you've tried it.

And, I wouldn't take any bets on the hydraulic steering on race boats, either. I've owned several powerboats with hydraulic steering, never had a minutes problem - ever! They're rugged, very reliable, and no worries about weather helm.

Gary

 

Gary,

If you can sit on that seat and see under your genoa, let alone see the slot, then your genoa was cut too high for decent performance.

You obviously have not spent much time around race boats. I would take you bet about the majority of race boats not having hydraulics since I have seen a bunch of their steering systems over the years. Race boat helmsmen have no worries about feeling weather helm, because they want to feel it to make sure that the crew is trimming to keep weather helm to a minimum.

And if you had ever lived with a hydraulic system on a sailboat, you would know about needing to check hoses and get the cylinders rebuilt with a fair degree of regularity to maintain reliability, and that awful feeling when you see the pool of hydrualic fluid in the locker after the helm went spongy on you.

Jeff

 

no hydraulic steering for me on sailboats either, hell no! now a hydraulic ram autohelm maybe

I love chain drives I think they are the simplest and easiest to fix, maybe cause Im into motorcycles and stuff!

here is a question for the pros

are there any belt driven systems out there? seems the lightweight would be a benefit here, especially on racing boats...

 

Jeff .... how does a large(r) wheel assist the auto pilot ? Paint me confused.

Fast .... we went with one of those Lewmar wheels a while back. Allowed for a larger diameter but still better access through the cockpit. All good but I doubt they are quite as strong as non folding type. Diameter of the rim is also less than original. I'd prefer the thicker rim.

I remember once seeing a cruising boat that had a Momo type car wheel so that they could replace main wheel when anchored but still have a usable whell if something untoward happened.

 

Jeff .... how does a large(r) wheel assist the auto pilot ? Paint me Confused.

The larger wheel allows a lower power mechanical advantage which means less friction so the autopilot has less friction to overcome and a wheel pilot has smaller movements.

 

Undoubtedly asked by someone that has never had to helm a big boat at sea in seriously heavy weather/seas for any time.

 

Correct.

 

I think the Ryno electric unicycle was offered at $5000 last year, but there's another company selling one for a paltry $1895 or so now.

Thread drift? No, not at all. It is a seat on a gyrostabilized wheel, and you could easily bolt one up at the helm, so the helmsman always had a nice level seat, actively gyrostabilized, behind the wheel. No matter which way the boat heeled under it.

Really, guys, your helm seat doesn't have active stabilization? Your binocs or phone camera are smarter than your helm or galley oven? Really?

 

we are saying the same things with the exception of how the autopilot works rehardless of wheel size.

are you reading what Im saying though?

an autopilot DOES NOT ATTACH TO A BIG WHEEL(outer rim) IT ATTACHES TO ITSELF! irregardless of outer wheel size

how fast or how much effort the autopilot requires is determined by the boats INNER wheel and rudder gearing

NOT the wheel steering size itself...thats why when you change driving wheels what changes is the feel physically in your arms you might have to use more arm strength or move more or less because you have changed 1 part of the final drive...

NOT at the rudder or quadrant or internal gearing as that isnt changed

yes I have sailed big wheels not 60 though.

Im saying what you are saying in opposite termimolgy if that makes any sense


a small wheel downwind is a handful not only because its small but also because internally they for the most part require more turns full lock to lock kind of like a car

my last boat had a medium sized wheel however the quadrant was massive with a 3/4 or so turn lock to lock whereas most boats are over 1 turn more than often they are close to 2.

my question to jeff is regarding the autopilot scenario...

cheers

 

Boats with BIG wheels usually dont have 'wheel pilots'; they usually have below-decks pilots attached to auxiliary tillers attached directly to the rudder stock. The reason: response time of the autopilot.

 

As to the autopilot, below deck at least, Lewmar came out with a disengaging wheel system. It allows the wheel to be free from the shaft so when a autopilot is in use the autopilot isn't having to move the weight and battle the inertia of the wheel. I thought it was neat. But they only make it for some of their wheels, it's not something you can add to your pedestal or existing wheel. Thought it was neat.


Informative thread, I have a 60" on my boat so I'm with the big wheel crowd. It allows you to sit on a combing that had been molded to a butt(no lie!) while on heel.

 

For me the big wheel is part of the glory of sailing that can't be described in words. Sitting on the high side with the side of the wheel in one hand steering by a very sweet touch with up and down movements is just amazing.

As to the autopilot, below deck at least, Lewmar came out with a disengaging wheel system. It allows the wheel to be free from the shaft so when a autopilot is in use the autopilot isn't having to move the weight and battle the inertia of the wheel. I thought it was neat. But they only make it for some of their wheels, it's not something you can add to your pedestal or existing wheel. Thought it was neat.

Informative thread, I have a 60" on my boat so I'm with the big wheel crowd. It allows you to sit on a combing that had been molded to a butt(no lie!) while on heel.

 

What are wheel so big, Cap'n Ron?

Nobody knows.

 

Lots of confusion in this thread
To compare the alternatives one should compare equal boats..

The force needed to steer / control the boat is the design criteria number one.
Mechanical advantage is he preferred way on sailboats because the helms person can feel the boat and result of sail trim better.

All mechanical advantage designs have to consider that you must increase travel to increase he force.

A large wheel give more leverage on the steering wheel shaft than a small wheel.
The larger wheel have more travel along it's edge.

The smaller wheel would need more mechanical advantage in the steering system to get the same force on the rudder, as a result it would need more turns-lock to-lock.

So there are two reasons to for large wheel
- more leverage
- ability to steer sitting on the side.

If you want to look at all the different ways to design a steering system - visit Jefa Jefa rudder and steering systems

 

So there are two reasons to for large wheel
- more leverage
- ability to steer sitting on the side.

Plus one more - finer control, especially important hard on the wind.