wood will flex and groan, essentually "talking" to the helmsperson and instilling feelings of terror or charm depending on their disposition. Before there was glass.. there was only wood. Being in Maine you would belong to long standing maritime tradition. I'd say that wooden boats have sharper lines then fiberglass, since FG gets its strenth in it's curves. It would be interesting to see the performance results of 2 boats with the same design in wood and glass.

 

Wooden boats are many things nowadays.. Are you talking of a traditional wooden constructions or cold-molded?
Cold molded constructions may be lighter and faster than a comparable GRP boat (and relatively easy to maintain).

 

Locally there is a fleet of 25' T-Birds, then again, the fleet and design started south of me in the Tacoma area. Original design was plywood over frame, later some to many, I do not know the quantity, were made from glass. This class, along with lightning and el toro have done a pretty good job of making sure the glass versions wiegh etc the same as wood. Generally speaking, a glass could weigh a bit less of the same design, potentially being faster with the same sail area.

With this in mind, reality is, if the class is done correct, there should not be any different tween the boats when racing one design. That is the goal of a boat that meets one design.

If the 1d rules are thrown out, then it is possible for glass to be faster, on the other hand, some wood boats built of the West or gougen brothers epoxy impregnated cedar, or a stich and glue plywood, are all pretty light boats, and may of the same design, be lighter than a glass boat! How the boats are built will really be the ultimate deciding factor.

Marty

 

I do some sailing in a Norwegian one design class where wood and fibreglass boats compete on the same terms. The results indicates that material used have little impact on the results.
The majority of the boats is fibreglass but still some wooden boats get first now and then.

 

Assuming identical hull shapes, the fiberglass boat will be lighter, and therefore probably faster. Fiberglass designs do not require the extensive internal framing of traditional plank on frame wood boats, and even a newer cold-molded wood boat will not be as light as the identically shaped fiberglass hull. This is not to say that fiberglass is "superior", just that it is lighter.

The scenario you posit (identical boats made of different materials) is probably not very helpful in helping you make a decision as to whether this is the boat for you. If its a one-design, then the class rules will ensure that the boats are as identical as possible. If its not a one-design, then the material used to construct the hull will have no more or different bearing on "sailing ability" than any other factor.

If you are really considering buying a wood boat, then I salute you; you are keeping alive a grand tradition of beautiful boats and traditional craftsmanship. Whenever I see one, I am thankful there are those out there with more time, money and/or ability than I to maintain these beauties.

 

Assuming identical hull shapes, the fiberglass boat will be lighter, and therefore probably faster. Fiberglass designs do not require the extensive internal framing of traditional plank on frame wood boats, and even a newer cold-molded wood boat will not be as light as the identically shaped fiberglass hull. This is not to say that fiberglass is "superior", just that it is lighter.

This is a bad generalization to make. A cold-molded wood boat would probably be lighter than a fiberglass boat of the same design. Cold-molded wood boats, depending on the construction, may in fact, be lighter and stiffer than a fiberglass boat. To see this, just look at some of the cold-molded dinghies and kayaks out there...

The scenario you posit (identical boats made of different materials) is probably not very helpful in helping you make a decision as to whether this is the boat for you. If its a one-design, then the class rules will ensure that the boats are as identical as possible. If its not a one-design, then the material used to construct the hull will have no more or different bearing on "sailing ability" than any other factor.

If you are really considering buying a wood boat, then I salute you; you are keeping alive a grand tradition of beautiful boats and traditional craftsmanship. Whenever I see one, I am thankful there are those out there with more time, money and/or ability than I to maintain these beauties.

 

As size increases structure increases. I respectively disagree that wood will always be heavier. The bracing and engineered curves needed to keep a glass boat of size within it's design specs requires stringers, keel supports, floors, etc. all need nearly the same types of structure. Ever notice what is in those fiberglass stringers that make that glass boat so strong? wood! what's in the decks? wood! (or foam) Some are tubes of paper to give the glass form while curing.
Glass without something to make it a composite is weak and flexible.
Exceptions are coldmolded, strip built, wood boats that most often are smaller designs, of which are designed like glass boats and use the curves to give it it's strength, I think I read somewhere that over about 50ft glass is not the best choice of materials. Didn't a ocean racing yacht break in half recently? I think it was carbon fiber.

On the small side of things. my 15ft one design wooden canoe (traditional wood ribs and planking with canvas skin) is lighter or close to equal in weight then a glass canoe of the same size. unless that canoe is "high tech" and designed to be ultra light.

All of the arguements aside, Those that love wooden boats are not easily swayed.

 

As size increases structure increases. I respectively disagree that wood will always be heavier. The bracing and engineered curves needed to keep a glass boat of size within it's design specs requires stringers, keel supports, floors, etc. all need nearly the same types of structure. Ever notice what is in those fiberglass stringers that make that glass boat so strong? wood! what's in the decks? wood! (or foam) Some are tubes of paper to give the glass form while curing.
Glass without something to make it a composite is weak and flexible.
QUOTE]

Nope the above is just wrong! Using modern composite materials you can build incredibly light and strong structures. Why do you think modern airliners race cars and crash helmets are made from composite materials.
Yes composite structures that are not correctly designed or built will fail
but the next time you fly if it is a Boeing 787 or an Airbus 350 then it is a composite structure that is keeping you up there.

The only reason wooden boats can compete with composite ones is if there are weight minimums.

Wood is lovely but its strength to weight ratio sucks when compared to "frozen snot" [Hinckley].

I am now retiring to my flame proof bunker to hide from wooden arrows launched from yew longbows.

 

This is a 1929 Alden designed 28' knockabout sloop. The current owner replaced the original plank 15 years ago with a coldmolded hull. SA/D of about 25, with almost all the sail in the main. Fractional rig with self tending jib. It doesn't really fulfill the weekender part of the criterea so well, but I have an interest in a 40' cruiser, so i'm comfortable with the trade off. Being in Maine, I have spent a lot of time admiring the old wooden boats and am having a tough time resisting this one...appreciate all of the input.

 

Now you need to look at it from a maintenance standpoint. From having built two plywood boats etc, wood is harder.....altho I am not sure I want to say harder, other than maybe more time consuming to a point. There a places a wood is easier glass, and the other way around.

Bright work is way more time. but when done right, you're happy, and the comments pour in...........

marty

 

When the Tbird fleet went to FG, they took great pains to ensure that there were no weight differences between the wood and glass boats. Old boats continued to do well in competition for a long time. They also went through a few different deck designs, with no noticeable advantage to either.

 

Well andrew the cold molded hull is a composite just like FG boats. the veneers are cross grain to each other as they are laid up to build the required thickness. do you have pictures or a web link to the boat? I'd love to see it.

 

Marty - would love to hear the ways in which you feel the wood is easier than the fiberglass from a maintenance perspective. The maintenance is the thing that is really holding me back. I assume (but could easily be wrong) that the coldmolded hull means you are not dealing with recaulking between the planks every year, which I recall used to be done on an old lobster boat my family had when I was a kid.

 

Here's a link that gives a picture and the specs of the design.

TRIANGLE (ALDEN) Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com (units English)

 

Here's a link that gives a picture and the specs of the design.

TRIANGLE (ALDEN) Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com (units English)

{Sigh}. Wow.

I have read how many of the old plank-on-frame boats have been given new life and added marketability by sheathing the outside of the hull with either fiberglass or a cold-molded veneer. My understanding is that this will eliminate the need to recaulk the seams; however, the original internal framing system still remains in the boat, and is still integral to its structure. I'm no engineer, but it would seem to me that while you "gain" by elminating one of the biggest wooden boat maintenance issues, you "lose" because now you have the additional weight of the external shell too. But with a boat that beautiful, I'd be willing to "lose" quite a bit. Anyway, you don't buy a boat like that to win races, you buy a boat like that because she makes your heart race.

 

I used to own and cruise on an Alden Malabar Sr., which was designed by Carl Alberg while he worked for J.G.Alden and Assoc. At 33 ft and roughly10,500 lbs., she gave similar sized and designed vessels [including Alberg 30 & 35's] a run for their money when raced . I also owned and restored an Alden Triangle but sold her without ever having a chance to sail her. You've plenty of qualified people up there to help you assess her condition prior to buying her.Good luck , I hope you get her ;they're nice boats. As for the weight question,the Triangle is roughly 2/3 that of the Pearson Triton. Though not identical, they are close in design and both are 28 footers.

 

I spent a lot of time researching this topic some years ago. I think that there are some big misunderstandings expressed in the discussion. My research looked at boats that were originally constructed in plank on frame wooden construction and which were converted to glass. I looked at a number of early boats like the Lightning class, Folkboat, H-28, and Rhodes Bounty.

In a general sense, the hulls on the wooden plank on frame boats were lighter and stiffer than the glass boats. In other words, the wooden boats flexed a lot less than the glass boats. In the case of the keel boats, this lighter weight meant that the wooden boats generally had more ballast and so had greater stability and in some cases carried more sail area than the glass boats (H-28 being a good example of that).

The reason that early fiberglass boat hulls were so heavy was that it was very hard to replicate the stiffness of wood without going to very thick fiberglass and since Fiberglass was so dense it quickly outweighed its wooden sisters.

This situation changed when designers began adding internal framing and then coring to fiberglass boats (late 1970's and early 1980's) . A properly framed glass boat can have a lighter, stronger hull than a plank on frame wooden boat.

Cold molding is another animal all together from plank on frame. Its weight is very dependent on the species of wood used, and the care in lay-up but in a general sense a cold-molded hull is lighter than a plank-on-frame wood hull but a bit heavier than a framed glass boat of similar strength and stiffness.

Generally speaking a carefully constructed cold molded wood boat will be less maintanence than a fiberglass hull and will be a lot more durable. I base this on an industry study comparing the life cost of various boat building materials that was done some years back.

Jeff

 

Jeff - thanks for you comments. As I understand it, the hull is "western red cedar laminars with GRP epoxy sheathing" and the work was done by Gordon Swift of Swift Custom Boats (means nothing to me).

If anyone here knows a good surveyor in or near Annapolis, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks again for everyone's input and feedback.
Andrew

 

Jeff - thanks for you comments. As I understand it, the hull is "western red cedar laminars with GRP epoxy sheathing" and the work was done by Gordon Swift of Swift Custom Boats (means nothing to me).

If anyone here knows a good surveyor in or near Annapolis, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks again for everyone's input and feedback.
Andrew

Work done by Gordon Swift is quite highly regarded in the wooden boat world, so I'm guessing the survey will reveal the work was done sensibly and to a high standard. If you haven't already been through the survey, I might recommend looking for a surveyor who specializes in wooden boats. Alas, many surveyor's lack experience in this area.

-Colin

 

mstern, actually the old planking can/could/should be removed and the cold molding becomes the new hull. glass sheathing is good but many boats still rot because the timbers will get water logged by trapped moisture and bilge waters.

 

That's a new one to me. I've never removed the old planking prior to cold-molding nor have I ever heard of anyone else doing so. Standard practice is to take a saw or router to open the seams to a uniform width and the glue wooden splines into the seams. These are then faired to the hull .To address the added weight issue, many plank on frame boats that have been cold molded do not gain weight because they lose the weight of the water that is no longer saturating their planking. The hull is thoroughly dried out prior to sheathing and the inside of the hull is sealed in a proper job. Progress on one such job can be followed at Welcome to the Colonial Seaport Foundation, Hampton, Virginia as they convert an old 47' Rosborough Privateer gaff topsail ketch into an 1800's style Colonial Sloop. The work is being led by John Collamore III , who has performed this process on many old classics which would have been dead otherwise.

 

XS, of course everything I say is gospel! I wonder why I used the words "can, could, should" ? Because it would be up to the restorer to make that determination.

 

AndrewMac,

The above posts have somewhat contradictory information. It may be that the seller is giving you mixed messages but the answer on whether this is the right boat for you greatly depends on finding out exactly what the situation is with this particular boat.

The advertisment on Yachtworld seems to suggest that this boat had a completely new hull cold molded roughly 10 years ago. That would produce a very durable low maintenance boat. The use of western red cedar was the preferred species for cold molding since it is strong, light and rot-resistant for its weight. It takes glue well and its cell structure was easily sealed by epoxy.

The discussions above seem to suggest that the boat simply had a cold-molded veneer put over the original hull. That is a very bad idea on a lightly planked and framed boat like this one, which rarely lasts over time and which would likely screw up the sailing ability of a light small boat like this one.

There was a Triangle for sale on the Chesapeake roughly 15 years ago that needed reframing, refastening and replanking. I assume that this is that boat. Lightly built boats that needed that kind of attention were very hard to save. The reality is that the only good way to save them would be to essentially replace the hull, which from the ad it sounds like someone did in this case with a cold molded hull. But there were folks out there adding cold molded laminate over the planking and then glassing which is at best a half-hearted solution which is likely to produce mediocre results over time.

The seller should be able to tell you exactly how the boat was rebuilt, in terms of whether the hull planking and framing were replaced, or simply laminated over and with how many veneers. Without that information I would not consider this boat even at its very inexpensive pricing.

Jeff

 

Jeff:

Thank you again for your well considered input. I have received similar feedback from a good friend who comes out of the Brooklin Boat Yard and clearly need to make sure that I have the appropriate homework done on the boat. As i am sure you can guess, much of my interest is driven by the aesthetics of the boat which are appealing to me, but I also don't want to be seduced by that alone - the idea is to have more fun sailing! With that said, do you or anyone else have a sense of how a boat of this design will perform? I am usually in 5-15 knots of wind during the summer months in Maine with seas rarely beyond 2/3 ft (frequently smaller). The main is proportionately much larger than what I am used to and I wonder whether that and the narrow beam will result in a large amount of weather helm (this question may reveal some holes in my knowledge, but that is afterall why I'm on sailnet - to learn from those who know more...)

Thanks to anyone who can give some feedback!

Regards,
Andrew

 

TQA,

I think we are looking at a number of different questions. Will a modern composite, Carbon Fiber boat be lighter than a wooden one? Yeah, by quite a bit. Will a 60's or 70's era fiber glass boat be lighter? Quite often, no.

This debate on weight though of course belays the real question of which this is just one small component... How will she sail, and will Andrew be able to maintain her without bankrupting himself? I'll leave these questions to those more experienced than I to answer.

-- James

 

Well - the survey will be done on Tuesday, so hopefully I'll know a good deal more at that point regarding the bankruptcy question . Conversation with the owner and surveyor was pretty positive. Surveyor is also going to talk to the guys in New Hampshire who did the coldmolding work and apparently there is an extensive photo log documenting methods and materials used during the restoration. That leaves the sailing question - owner, of course, says she sails like a dream. One point that was interesting is that they shortened the boom in order to accomodate a permanent backstay, which i assume reduces the sail area and the SA/D which was a touch under 25 on the original. Also, there's no clubfoot on the jib which was part of the original design...

 

lol tqa I don't disagree! We where however, (at least I was) referencing to traditional building methods. I guess we could build a carbon fiber replica of of Andrew's boat!

I think beneteau is using a honeycomb for the bottom stucture of its boats. Light and super strong! "

Oh, in older boats I guess the balsa in the decks (yeah, that's a composite too) was a feeble attempt to save weight. (never minding that poly resin doesn't bond with wood very well) And paper tube to give a hollow stringer it's shape would save lots of weight too... as the paper mildews away... and hollow alum spars instead of spruce,, oh don't forget in between were hollow spruce spars! Then along came carbon fiber.....

tries to picture herself at the local sailnet gathering surrounded by experts, pointing, yelling, screaming? "YOUR WRONG"!! when did I say I was right? :hammer

But then, who wants 1/4 inch of vac. formed fiberglass between you and cold deep water? Or does your "older boat" with an inch or more of hand laid up fg, huge stringers, carlins, etc. impart a more secure feeling?

 

I've only bought 2 boats in my life, and both were purchased for less than an hour of a surveyors time, so I'm not really familiar with the real boat buying process. Am I to understand that all of this, surveys and the like, is being done before the owner has taken you out for a test sail? Is this normal in the big boat buying world?

Thanks.

-- James

 

The boat is on the hard, so no test sail available. The previous boats we've bought have all been through our local yard in maine where we have a 35 year relationship and lots of trust. This is all new to me as well. But with something like this, seems like the only way to go is with a thorough survey - would rather spend a couple hundred $$ now than find out there is a $10,000 repair in my immediate future...