[tempest]

I believe that the Marina's rights fall under Federal " Maritime" law and not state law. (Here in the U.S. at least) Not sure if it only applies to Navigable waters.



Below is an excerpt from my Marina Contract:

These guys have been around for 75 years and I have no doubt that they hired a Maritime Lawyer to draft this contract.

." Service work is performed on a "cash when completed" basis. Charges accruing against the tenant and/or vessel shall constitute a Maritime lien upon the vessel and the Marina may retain possession of the vessel until such charges are fully paid. Tenant agrees and understands that the services performed hereunder arising out of the furnishing of the necessaries, including dry-docking, repairs, supplies, wharfage, and/or storage are governed by the Admiralty and Maritime jurisdiction of the U.S Federal Courts and create a Maritime lien against the vessel or its posted security. The Marinas' Maritime lien shall be preserved until all outstanding charges are paid. The Marina agrees in lieu of arrest or attachment to accept from vessels Underwriters, a Letter of Undertaking for an amount equal to 1 1/2 (1.5) times the present charges with a copy of the insurance policy and coverage information. If the vessel is uninsured, or it Underwriters cannot provide a Letter of Undertaking, the Marina may demand a posting of a surety bond with its designated escrow agent in an amount equal to 1 1/2 (1.5) times the Marina's bill. The tenant hereby agrees and understand that in the event that the marina takes legal action against the tenant/vessel to enforce any obligation owed hereunder for payment of any sums due and payable by the tenant to the marina for furnishings of necessaries, including dry-docking, repairs, supplies, wharfage and/or storage to the vessel; Tenant shall be responsible for an agrees to pay all costs of suit incurred including reasonable attorney's fees; and said costs and attorney's fees shall also constitute an additional lien on the vessel. The Marina may satisfy collection of fees or charges incurred in collection or payment due hereunder or to enforce any other obligations owed hereunder by the tenant; including reasonable attorney's fees by recourse to any security

 

[Sailormon6]

You mean, you can't do that without the warrant? I doubt that. I suppose it makes it easier...

Remember the principle, "Let the buyer beware." If you buy the boat or car or property without a warranty, you buy it as it is, and subject to any liens or defects in the title. That's why you buy real estate with a warranty deed, and not a quit-claim deed. You want the seller's warranty that there are no outstanding liens or legal claims against the property.

 

[TakeFive]

This is not a comment about any particular person, but often I see attorneys giving advice about regulations and procedures that are so complicated that they can only be effectively followed by hiring an attorney. There can be a little bit of self-interest in these things.

In my experience, if you buy a boat, vehicle, or other titled property there is a level of risk that the property is encumbered in some way and that you may lose your freedom to use it as intended. Small things you take the risk yourself, larger things you hire attorneys to mitigate the risk, purchase title insurance, etc. For small things (past due bills owed to a marina), talking to people (marina owner) is often the cheapest/fastest way to get to the truth. I'm glad the buyer did that.

 

[MikeOReilly]

This is not a comment about any particular person, but often I see attorneys giving advice about regulations and procedures that are so complicated that they can only be effectively followed by hiring an attorney. There can be a little bit of self-interest in these things.

In my experience, if you buy a boat, vehicle, or other titled property there is a level of risk that the property is encumbered in some way and that you may lose your freedom to use it as intended. Small things you take the risk yourself, larger things you hire attorneys to mitigate the risk, purchase title insurance, etc. For small things (past due bills owed to a marina), talking to people (marina owner) is often the cheapest/fastest way to get to the truth. I'm glad the buyer did that.

Very true. Life is a risk. There's no such thing as perfect security. But there are lots of things people can do outside of hiring lawyers*. For example, you can search to for liens on your prospective boat. Notwithstanding some jurisdictions, many do make it possible for the average person to do a search.

You can also ask the current owner; IOW you can get a warrant.

* Not that I'm saying hiring a lawyer is a bad thing. They are definitely useful, but much like other professions, they can be a little self-serving in attempting to make the law appear opaque and difficult. Often, it is not.

 

[boatpoker]

Yes, that's why I mentioned (twice) the issue of a lien, but the debt is owed by the PO, not the new owner; not unless the sale agreement specifically includes past encumbrances (which should be a HUGE red flag). A lien is made against an asset as a form of surety. The marina can foreclose on the asset to recoup their loss, but the debt is still the PO's.

A lien must be registered, so it's relatively easy to check whether one exists. There is also a process for registering one -- it's not a slam-dunk -- and there's usually a small cost involved.

I'd search the public registry of the jurisdiction to check regarding a lien. If there is none, then the new potential owner is good to go.

The punch line is the same ... Bob buys a boat with a lien attached. Boat is seized. Bob is still out his money and his boat regardless of who owes the debt.

 

[tempest]

Good luck with that. In USA the court doesn't give you money, you get a Judgement against offending party. I have $10,000 in Judgements I'll sell you for $2000.

If the other party (against which you have a judgement) doesn't own anything of value you can't do a damned thing. If they own [not lease] a car, you have to take the judgement back to the court and get permission to grab the offender's car. Then take it to the local cops, who may or may not elect to tow it to impound. Then the debtor might pay to get the car; if they can't or won't, you can then have the car sold. This all costs money and time and overall has a low rate of success.

However, in this instance we were talking about a boat. The Boat is in the Marina, the Marina doesn't have to go looking for it, it's already in their possession. They would simply not release it to anyone until they were paid.

That said, Marina's don't want to have to execute that level of penalty. It's a hassle, unless the boat has much more value than what's owed. If they confiscate the boat, then they have to bear the expense to sell it or more often, dispose of it.

With cars, if you have a proper lien on the car, you can just notify and file it with the the local police that you're executing it and send your own tow truck and they are pretty stealthy about it. They don't want confrontation. That way, when the call comes in that your car was stolen, the police can just give you the number of your creditor to call.

 

[VIEXILE]

I didn't read all the responses, so this has probably been answered to an extent.

It's on the boat if it sells, since the Marina "has it" in their possession. Might even get enforced under Admiralty rules without a recorded lien. Argue and a lien will get recorded with NVDC. Simple form filing (with fee). Marina doesn't want the boat, they just want to get paid as agreed. Negotiate a payoff (discount?) before purchase that includes the continued use of the slip if you want it. Check NVDC for any actual liens, ships mortgages, etc. before buying anything. I just cleaned up a 1998 mortgage on a Bene 50 that was with a bank that got swallowed, changed, changed again, swallowed again. Still had a mortgage lien on it paid off years ago. Pain in the derriere.

 

[Mondonico]

Maritime law provides for silent liens; you don't "slap a lien" on a vessel (preferred mortgages are different). Lien claimant doesn't have to file it anywhere. It exists at a matter of law.

 

[VIEXILE]

Maritime law provides for claims. To take enforceable action the "silent" lien has to be perfected. In the U.S. by filing with NVDC, Secretary of State or Lieutenant Governor's office. Sometimes even with State fish and wildlife divisions. NVDC is the multijurisdictional route for documented vessels, the latter for the specific jurisdiction only for undocumented vessels. Of course you can "slap a lien" on a documented vessel. If not documented, record in the Registry of Deeds (liening the offender in general) after filing a Collection action and with the foregoing State authorities - what is appropriate in your State. But you better beware of slander of title in the process. You lose, you could pay dearly. I've seized vessels on a few occasions. Get intransigent with bills on a documented vessel and gonna boogie? The U.S. Marshal Service takes over and 'manages' your vessel at YOUR expense. Other jurisdictions (internationally) aren't so kind and defined.

 

[Ineptune]

I believe that the Marina's rights fall under Federal " Maritime" law and not state law. (Here in the U.S. at least) Not sure if it only applies to Navigable waters.



Below is an excerpt from my Marina Contract:

These guys have been around for 75 years and I have no doubt that they hired a Maritime Lawyer to draft this contract.

." Service work is performed on a "cash when completed" basis. Charges accruing against the tenant and/or vessel shall constitute a Maritime lien upon the vessel and the Marina may retain possession of the vessel until such charges are fully paid. Tenant agrees and understands that the services performed hereunder arising out of the furnishing of the necessaries, including dry-docking, repairs, supplies, wharfage, and/or storage are governed by the Admiralty and Maritime jurisdiction of the U.S Federal Courts and create a Maritime lien against the vessel or its posted security. The Marinas' Maritime lien shall be preserved until all outstanding charges are paid. The Marina agrees in lieu of arrest or attachment to accept from vessels Underwriters, a Letter of Undertaking for an amount equal to 1 1/2 (1.5) times the present charges with a copy of the insurance policy and coverage information. If the vessel is uninsured, or it Underwriters cannot provide a Letter of Undertaking, the Marina may demand a posting of a surety bond with its designated escrow agent in an amount equal to 1 1/2 (1.5) times the Marina's bill. The tenant hereby agrees and understand that in the event that the marina takes legal action against the tenant/vessel to enforce any obligation owed hereunder for payment of any sums due and payable by the tenant to the marina for furnishings of necessaries, including dry-docking, repairs, supplies, wharfage and/or storage to the vessel; Tenant shall be responsible for an agrees to pay all costs of suit incurred including reasonable attorney's fees; and said costs and attorney's fees shall also constitute an additional lien on the vessel. The Marina may satisfy collection of fees or charges incurred in collection or payment due hereunder or to enforce any other obligations owed hereunder by the tenant; including reasonable attorney's fees by recourse to any security

What you have in that document grants consent to certain jurisdiction and application of certain laws.

 

[MarkofSeaLife]

One good thing about SailNet is we have plenty of airline pilots and lawyers. If we can turn up a heart attack doctor or two we'll be a sailors most useful internet group 😍

The OP is getting great advice 😊😁😊

Mark

 

[PGandW]

I believe that the Marina's rights fall under Federal " Maritime" law and not state law. (Here in the U.S. at least) Not sure if it only applies to Navigable waters.

IIRC from my law classes 50 years ago, Admiralty Law (federal Maritime Law) only applies to documented vessels. If the state set up a boat registration system, and the boat is registered in one of those states, state, not federal, law applies. And as has been pointed out in earlier posts, property liens vary considerably from state to state. The differences between documented boats and state-registered boats have both baffled and enriched lawyers for decades.

And none of this takes into consideration the confusion of liens (or any other legal matter) against vessels outside of the country they are registered/documented in. Being a Florida registered boat (not documented) in the Bahamas in the '80s gave both Bahamian and US local Customs all kinds of consternation when I cruised the boat in the Bahamas. Canada just didn't care when I trailered the boat and cruised there.

Fred W
retired Coastie
Stuart Mariner 19 #4133 Sweet P
Yeopim Creek, NC

 

[PGandW]

Remember the principle, "Let the buyer beware." If you buy the boat or car or property without a warranty, you buy it as it is, and subject to any liens or defects in the title. That's why you buy real estate with a warranty deed, and not a quit-claim deed. You want the seller's warranty that there are no outstanding liens or legal claims against the property.

Having bought real estate in 4 different states over the years, I find this varies from state to state. In general, the mortgage company requires you to buy title insurance to protect against any defects in the title. In some states, a title search is done and you hope it was thorough (NC I believe follows this process). Some states allow you to buy a separate add-on title insurance policy (Colorado) at the same time the mortgage company gets insured against faulty title. And I have heard of the difference between quit claim and warranty deeds, but have not experienced it in my real estate transactions.

Fred W
Stuart Mariner #4133 Sweet P
Yeopim Creek, NC

 

[Ineptune]

In some states, a title search is done and you hope it was thorough (NC I believe follows this process).

Fred W
Stuart Mariner #4133 Sweet P
Yeopim Creek, NC

Yes

 

[VIEXILE]

Admiralty Law has it's very own cookbook in the Federal Rules book. If you need a nap, start reading it. But it extends in many different directions beyond vessel liens.

 

[Sailormon6]

In general, the mortgage company requires you to buy title insurance to protect against any defects in the title.

At the outset of my career I was a title attorney for a major title insurance company. At that time, banks and other mortgage lending companies required buyers of real estate to buy title insurance to protect the banks and mortgage lenders against any defects in the title. However, that did not protect the buyers of the property. If the buyers wished to be protected against undiscovered defects in the title, they had to pay an additional premium. At that time, title insurance companies did not insure against unrecorded liens, such as some mechanics' and materialmens' liens. Even when liens are recorded, a search of the records might not disclose them. Experienced title examiners can fail to notice a recorded lien. People make mistakes. Some commit fraud.

Vessel title insurance is available for boats.

Law, BOATINGLAW.COM Vessel Title Insurance
Vessel Title Insurance Helps Protect Assets

 

[bwaherne]

I won't attempt to give legal advice, but you may want to spend some time researching a Southern California publication called "The Log." They have a regular feature called "Ask the Attorney." I believe that almost the exact question has been answered recently by the very knowledgeable and experienced lawyer who specializes in such matters and writes the responses. Health problems limit my time to look up the responses.