One Idea:
Get on the West Marine mailing list. Usually about late February or March, for 3 days or so, they sell Lewmar winches, 2 for the price of 1.
Three years ago I replaced our OEM Lewmar 30ST pair on the housetop with two new Lewmar 40ST. After selling off the 30's, the net cost for the upgrade was about $700. Heck of a Deal.

You will love having new self tailing winches and that solves the cleating problem you are having.

 

That is a lousy spot for the cam cleat. I wonder if it's original or added along the way. I'd move it up on top of the coaming, or just put a regular cleat up there. I know you took self tailing off the list, but you wouldn't get the smile off your face, if you went that route.

 

@Minnewaska I think it is the original spot, I don't see any other place that looks like it had something else installed. Crazy if it is the stock location, very bad place. I thought about moving it up, but was not sure if the angle would be good or not.

I am definitely going to use a regular cleat if no one has anything else that might be better.

CMessa

 

not sure if the angle would be good or not.

Good point. It may require a lead of some sort, if you moved it. Cams are pretty convenient, but not as safe and secure as other methods, no matter the angle. I have a couple cams aboard, for less important tasks, and it's not uncommon for the line to be knocked out of it.

 

@olson34 I think I am on that list, I will have to pay attention when the sales start to happen this winter. I don't need much for the jib sheet, they are just so much more expensive then the non-self tailing winch! But like you both said, it would be a much better solution. I think I will wait until spring before I install a regular cleat, just in case I catch a sale over the winter. Thanks for the advice!

 

@Minnewaska I think I will wait for the sales this winter and see if I have the money to get a self tailing winch. If not, then I will go with a regular cleat. The only issue I see would be releasing the jib sheet quickly if needed, but I don't have enough experience to know if that is a real problem or not. When I have been sailing, if we need to spill air, we would release the main sheet and do it that way.

 

We are old. Our first 2 boats didn't have self trailers. We had cleats like these behind the winch, and you just sort of jammed the line in without all the usual wrapping, so you could free it quickly. Worked fine.

 

@capecodda That is an interesting cleat, do you know what it is called? Trying to find on west marine. That, along with the grip textured gelcoat behind that winch and some turns on the winch, might provide plenty of grip for my needs and it would be quick release!

Did you install it with the angled end facing the winch so that you got at least a half of a wrap on the other end of the cleat and then pull the line tight into the angled part?

 

I'm looking for a good picture for you of one in use, but the inter web has evidently given up on this ancient history of sheeting jibs .... As I recall, the long part with the jam in it is away from the winch, and it works sort of as you described...no big wraps so you can dump the jib when you need to. Here's another one for sale someplace....

Schaefer Marine Cleat, Jam, 5in (127mm), Silver

This clear anodized aluminum horn cleat has an open base for more room to pass the rope tail through the middle. It also has one extended leg which aids in jamming the rope off. Secures with two fasteners which are not included.

store.offshorespars.com

 

I had jam cleats on my C&C 35 and loved them. I had self-tailing winches, but, when sailing singlehanded, usually used the jam cleats instead of the self-tailers. They were quicker and more efficient.

 

I think I had it backwards in the last message....here's one picture I found. I think the winch would actually be above this picture.....anyone remember can verify?

 

I think that last picture is what I was thinking about, that way it would have at least half a wrap around the cleat before it jammed into place. Saw some for sale like the link you posted, but don't look near as nice as your original picture. Gives me a description to start with.

 

I think so too...you end up with the tag end up and over, the loaded end towards the winch down and under. That way you can release it easy. Remember this working really well, but it's been over 30 years .

 

I think so too...you end up with the tag end up and over, the loaded end towards the winch down and under. That way you can release it easy. Remember this working really well, but it's been over 30 years .

Our boat has jam cleats for jib sheets. They work great and are easy to use; quick to secure and release. (Seen here alongside my napping 10 year old)

I'm sure self tailing winches would be an upgrade but for our boat the jam cleats have been just fine.

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Definitely a self tailing winch would be my first choice. Winchers do work and are worth a try.

Having the cleat sticking out on that steel plate is a terrible idea! That would do some damage if you fell against it or bashed you knee on it. I get why they did it because it allows you to pull the sheet on and cleat it from the weather side, but how often do you do that? Even ditching the plate and mounting the cleat directly on the vertical plane of the seat back might be an option.



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I found this online, similar to what was posted before, but a little different. Not as good as what Capecodda posted, but might be worth a try.

Jam Cleat

I agree @SchockT it is a terrible design and definitely is going to cause an injury.

 

Incase it's not obvious, the idea with the jam cleat is to put it on the same surface as the winch, not the side of the cockpit where you sit.

 

I am thinking a little ways behind the winch on the same level, I need to take better look at the boat and see how much room I have before I start to run into the pulpit and things like that. Plus this is right where you would step into the boat, so several things to consider. Definitely want it out of the cockpit! It is a small boat, not a lot of room in there as it is and dodging this is a pain!

 

I don't know your boat, so this is just a suggestion to think about.

It looks like the genoa sheet has quite a lot of side loading where it runs through the block . You can probably reduce that friction by running the sheet to a foot block, mounted a couple of feet (or more) behind the winch. Then in the run between foot block and the winch you have room for a rope clutch. Two foot blocks and two clutches from Garhauer $230. Garhauer is good stuff but might be bigger than you need, and you can probably do it for less if you shop around and/or look second hand.

This is similar to the arrangement on my l Catalina. There are self-tailers instead of clutches although I am going to add clutches so that I can use the primary winches for the genoa car system I have bought, but not yet installed.

Here is a picture of a Catalina 36 that I borrowed from the web.

 

^ this picture is what I was looking for, perfect!

 

The jam cleats in photo are mounted backwards. The non jam side if the cleat should take the load. If the jam side takes the load, the line can JAM in the cleat and will be hard to release under tension.

 

they are mounted right . there is a separate cleat for each winch. the forward winch has a cleat but they are using the cleat for the aft winch.

 

I'd say use clams. mount them as you wish, but they would work well in this instance. Given this is a small(er) boat, clam is fine. I used jams on my Capri 22, clams on my Capri 25, and cams on my S2 7.9, I liked the clams so much I replaced my cams on the 7.9 with clams. They aren't perfect of course but they are easy to throw a line into and have grab. You must pull back to release, but on a lighter boat that is OK.

Oh and cross sheet if you are sailing solo, it make everything easier.

 

I'll be the contrarian. The installation is fine the way it is.

Self-tailing winches are slower to unload than plain winches; no race boat this size would have them. They still need a cam cleat on tender boats; you can't release the line without going over to the winch and unwinding it. Same with jam cleats, only worse if there are not enough turns on the winch (less than 2, or perhaps 3)

I always mount a cam cleat down stream of self-tailing winches.

IMO, you don't need to do anything, and many of the suggestions will make the boat a lesser sailing machine. I'd sit somewhere else. Possibly, you could put the cam cleat farther aft on the coaming. But I would leave it as it is, unless I felt I was smarter than the designer....

cam cleat for winch

 

Correct. Technically the forward cleat is for the jib sheet and the rear clear is for Spinnaker control lines that come off the rear winch.

But I regularly use the rear clear for jib sheet too when I'm solo (or when someone is sitting/sleeping in the way). Even though it's 'backwards' it works just fine and in 12 years I've not had a sheet jam, so it isn't something I worry about.

In the photo, it's obviously a light wind day (notice just one wrap on the drum), but even when it's honking, I've not had any issues with using the cleat 'backwards''.

Ymmv, this is just my experience.

~fortunat

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I would discourage the use of turning blocks or clutches on the jib sheets. Both add friction to the jibsheet when you release it under load, and they snag hockles, preventing the line from running free. I crewed on a boat recently with turning blocks aft of the winches, and the jib sheets were stopped by hockles repeatedly. The turning block pictured on the Catalina 36 is only used because, without it, the jib sheet would rub against the gunwale and the dodger frame. As long as the sheet can run straight from the genoa car to the winch without rubbing anything, there's no reason to use turning blocks.

 

We had the Schaefer jam cleats on our J/36. Quick and easy. As others have said, jam end points back at the winch so you can unclear it even under load. Though flat on the same level as the winch bases, make sure they're angled properly towards the line as it comes off the winch. If they're too much in line with the sheet they are harder to cleat off because the line from the winch interferes. If they're too much out of line the sheets will pull the cleats sideways instead of lengthwise, and they won't be as strong.